[Patrick_Mucci]

I recently played an interesting golf course that has several holes that cross a small fronting creek.

On those holes, the fairway stops about 30 yards short of the creek and the grass is maintained as rough.  The terrain short of the creek is flat. Immediately over the creek all the grass is mowed as fairway/fringe, right up to the green.  There's about 20 yards of fairway over the creek fronting the green.

The strip of rough fronting the creek functions as a buffer, preventing balls from rolling into the creek.

Both holes are reachable par 5's.

Don't they have it backwards ?

Shouldn't the grass be mowed as fairway right up to the creek, thereby placing a premium on accuracy (distance control) on the second shot ?

Wouldn't the tactical value of the hole be dramatically increased if the grass was mowed as fairway all the way to the creek ?

Why do American courses tend to introduce safety net buffers fronting or flanking hazards ?

[Ian Larson]

Buffers could be spec'ed on golf courses for enviornmental protection reasons to prevent runoff and contamination to streams, ponds or lakes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Buffers could be spec'ed on golf courses for enviornmental protection reasons to prevent runoff and contamination to streams, ponds or lakes.

Not on this course, which is over 100 years old.

[Chris Kane]

Why do American courses tend to introduce safety net buffers fronting or flanking hazards ?

It happens with bunkers too - I am always disappointed to see photos of "great" courses with bunkers in the rough.  Merion is the perfect example.

The only conclusion I can draw is that those responsible for setting up courses in this way don't have a basic understanding of architecture.

[Tim Bert]

Patrick -

The answer is simple.  To maintain it as fairway all the way to the hazard wouldn't be fair to those without rangefinders to gauge the lay-up distance.

[Mike_Clayton]

Chris,

Someone one day will take one of the great American parlaknd courses and cut them as they do Kingston Heath or Royal Melbourne or Sunningdale and Swinley Forest.
Short grass around the bunkers and wide fairways that let the ball run to where it was hit.

It will take a realization that perhaps people outside of America have thought of a way of doing something a better way.

[John Moore II]

Tim--I hope you are being sarcastic with that last comment, otherwise, its pretty much garbage.

Pat--Though I think the example you give has the rough cut back too far, but I can see having the rough cut back a little ways from the creek side, depending on how steep the bank is, just for safety reasons. But other than that, I say shave it down right to the water's edge.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Buffers could be spec'ed on golf courses for enviornmental protection reasons to prevent runoff and contamination to streams, ponds or lakes.

Not on this course, which is over 100 years old.

Pat-

  Do older courses have to adapt their design to local environmental regulations?  In other words, say, when the course was designed, you had fairway right up to the creek.  80-odd years later, the town in which the course is located enacts environmental laws which specify some sort of a buffer to waterways. 
  I may not be asking the correct question, but I think you get the gist of what I'm asking. 

[Ian Larson]

Doug,

It happens. Especially when its a stream that is a tributary to a drinking water source. They also create buffers where the super can only use organic based fertilizers along these tributary's. It all depends on the situation and how strict the local government is. The golf courses age doesnt make it exempt to pollution or runoff.

Architectually and strategically I like to see the short grass flirting with the hazards and bring them more into play.

[Tim Bert]

Tim--I hope you are being sarcastic with that last comment, otherwise, its pretty much garbage.

Granted we've never met, but do you think someone could really post that comment and be serious about it.  I suppose it is possible given all the hoopla on the 8 page rangefinder thread.  Just having some fun.

[John Moore II]

Tim-you could be a really new school kind of guy

[Patrick_Mucci]

Buffers could be spec'ed on golf courses for enviornmental protection reasons to prevent runoff and contamination to streams, ponds or lakes.

Not on this course, which is over 100 years old.

Pat-

  Do older courses have to adapt their design to local environmental regulations?  In other words, say, when the course was designed, you had fairway right up to the creek.  80-odd years later, the town in which the course is located enacts environmental laws which specify some sort of a buffer to waterways.

No, this has nothing to do with the town, they couldn't care less.
It was a member/ship decision.

Years ago it was mowed closer to the creek.
 
I may not be asking the correct question, but I think you get the gist of what I'm asking. 

[Jason McNamara]

Years ago it was mowed closer to the creek.[/b]

So is it just that the members got tired of losing golf balls?

Edit:  ...especially as they got older, and couldn't clear the creek so often.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I agree with your theory in general, but the holes mentioned might not be so affected.

Using the yardages given in your post, the strip of rough begins some 50 yards or so short of the green, and ends 20 yards short, which places the creek just over 20 yards from the green.

Perhaps having the rough entices some players ( those with warning track power) to go for the green in two, knowing they have a 'buffer' strip that may save them from the creek if they've over-estimated their ability, or  top a shot.

[Bill Collin]

I am playing such a club course in their invitational tourney right now and its done that way on two holes - one shouldn't really come into play, but other is a big issue.  Not sure of any environmental issues.

Diagonally running creek cuts through the fairway of a slight dogleg right par 4.  Requires a 220-240 yard carry, but no longer than 260 as to avoid the tall grass hillside on the far side of dogleg.  Tough driving hole.  Laying back with a 200-ish yard club leaves you 180+ into a severe green with the same creek on one side. 

Rough is left long on both sides of the creek.  I watched multiple guys hit shots that were clearly headed into the creek on the ground only to hit the rough and stop. So they basically get their max distance layup shot without much chance of hitting it in the water.  They play it this way on purpose.  It would be a much more challenging hole if shaved on the tee side.  Now you've got toe lay back another 10+ yards to make sure you don't roll into the water and you approach shot is a difficult 200 yarder.

I'm all but certain it was done because members wanted to lose fewer balls.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Years ago it was mowed closer to the creek.[/b]

So is it just that the members got tired of losing golf balls?

Edit:  ...especially as they got older, and couldn't clear the creek so often.

Why don't you suggest that they do the same thing on # 13 and # 15 at Augusta.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

I forgot to mention that both holes are +/- 500 yards

[John Moore II]

Years ago it was mowed closer to the creek.[/b]

So is it just that the members got tired of losing golf balls?

Edit:  ...especially as they got older, and couldn't clear the creek so often.

Why don't you suggest that they do the same thing on # 13 and # 15 at Augusta.


Pat--Great idea for Augusta. Especially on the green side of the ponds. Maybe give the players incentive to go for the green more...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Then barring any environmental considerations or constraints, I'd go along w/Jason and Bill, i.e., the members losing balls.

[Jason McNamara]

So is it just that the members got tired of losing golf balls?

Edit:  ...especially as they got older, and couldn't clear the creek so often.

Why don't you suggest that they do the same thing on # 13 and # 15 at Augusta.

I have not suggested the course in question do anything.  Just offering a possible answer to your question.  (Also, I don't know the extent to which member input on course set-up is encouraged at the anonymous club in question.)

And further to Jim Kennedy's comment, a request for more information, please:  what is the rough like for a mis-struck tee shot?  Is it such that the golfer is happy to hack it out leaving a full wedge 3d, or can members still go for the green in two from the rough? 

[Kyle Harris]

I'm more tempted to just carry the creek and use the fairway to run a shot on to the green.

A short pitch out of the rough is not a shot most golfers have in their repertoire.

If the par 5s are reachable, I'm more inclined to look at them as par 4.5s where I'd be compelled to challenge the creek to get my half birdie instead of bailing out to get my half bogey.

Oh, and Pat, just to be well, you.

Which courses outside of the United States have you played to provide basis for your statement that American courses are alone in hazing buffer zones between hazards?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Then barring any environmental considerations or constraints, I'd go along w/Jason and Bill, i.e., the members losing balls.

Jim,

The interesting thing about that creek is that it's about 10 yards wide, fairly shallow, with decent current and clear water, so, I don't think that many golf balls are lost.

I didn't lose the two I hit into it.  I retrieved them quite easily.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have not suggested the course in question do anything.  Just offering a possible answer to your question.  (Also, I don't know the extent to which member input on course set-up is encouraged at the anonymous club in question.)

I thought I identified the course in a related thread.
It's Glen Ridge.

And further to Jim Kennedy's comment, a request for more information, please: 

what is the rough like for a mis-struck tee shot?

It depends upon how far off line the tee shot is. 

Is it such that the golfer is happy to hack it out leaving a full wedge 3d, or can members still go for the green in two from the rough? 

Understanding that each lie is different, in general, a player who hits it long enough to bring the green into range with his second shot can do so from the immediate rough.  The further off line you go the more trees flanking the fairway can come into play

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which courses outside of the United States have you played to provide basis for your statement that American courses are alone in hazing buffer zones between hazards?

Kyle,

Would you cite where I stated that American courses are ALONE in creating buffer zones between hazards ?

[John Moore II]

Pat--I feel nearly hurt that you didn't tear into me about my comments about Augusta. Getting you riled up was my only intention of posting those comments. I am positively depressed now.

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