Upcoming majors / Baltusrol, et al

[Matt_Ward]

Congrats to Baltusrol in landing the 2016 PGA Championship -- the 100th anniversary of the first event played at Siwanoy.

Clearly what it shows is that Baltusrol is no longer a key player for consideration for future US Opens. The USGA will likely opt to stay with Bethpage / Black and likely Shinnecock with a possible return to Winged Foot if the relationship between the two goes from frosrty now to hugs ans kissses at some future time.

Baltusrol provides the PGA a venue in the metro NYC marketplace and is clear attempt to honor the connection to the NY metro area given the association's starting point in nearby Westchester County with Siwanoy.

More importantly, Baltusrol continues to be active in the major championship arena. Amazingly, the club was one of the last holdouts to host a strictly professional event after only hosting USGA Championships until the '05 PGA. Last I can recall, only Merion remains among the top clubs in the nation to have hosted at least 10 national championships and not one of them being a strictly men's professional event.

Also interesting to read the current Digest issue and they have listed Erin Hills and Oakmont as likely candidates for the next US Open vacancies which are in 2015 and 2016 respectively.

According to the short notice it appears the USGA and Shinnecock Hills are also close to some sort of deal to bring the Men's event back there again likely in 2017.  That would be welcome news since Shinny is thought of so highly by so many different people.

Very interesting indeed.

[SPDB]

Do you really believe it is a "clear attempt to honor the connection to the NY metro area"? I never saw it mentioned in any release.

Also vacancy for the US Open in 2015? Did the USGA rescind the offer to Chambers Bay?

[Matt_Ward]

Mea culpa on my part for the Chambers Bay omission. Simply push the years one back.

Everything doesn't have to be in a release. It can certainly be inferred from the Mr. Steranka's comments on landing Baltusrol and its tie to the greater NYC metro area and the 100th anniversary of the association.

[Cliff Hamm]

Glad to hear it.  While scores may be low at Baltusrol with firm and fast as in 2005 it can provide an adequate test.  Too bad the USGA doesn't see it that way.  Baltusrol has provided some of the more memorable majors in recent memory - 2 victories by Nicklaus with Janzen in 1993. 

Of note is the 2005 PGA.  As I noted on a previous thread I can't remember a better leaderboard.  At the end Mickleson wins with the others in the top 10 being: Bjorn, Elkington, Love, Woods, Perez, Goosen, Campbell, Oglivy, Singh.  Can never remember them all but this seems like the best in recent memory.

Matt...on your other point.  I have found it interesting that Erin Hills had all the pre opening buzz and afterwards Chambers Bay seems to be favored.  While one is on the water any opinion from you or others how these compare?

[Steve Lapper]

Another one at Baltusrol...ho..hum....

Not exactly the most exciting course...interesting to see the PGA settle into a semi-rota just like the boys over on Liberty Corner Rd.

Cliff:

   I think you may a tad too excited. The 2006 Open at WFW gave us Oglivy, Mickelson, Monty, Furyk and Paddy, Weir and VJ on the final leaderboard. It did so with a heck of lot more drama and interest than the muggy weekend in Springfield, don't you think?

Matt:

   You sure about Shinny speculation? I've heard otherwise...anyone else hearing much?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

My source comes from the current Digest issue.

I can't say for certain beyond that -- but if Shinny doesn't come back onto the scene by that time frame then we have all lost something so marvelous -- that grand site in Southampton.

Be curious to see how Sebonack fares with the Women's Open -- I can only speculate that if the marriage between Shinny and the USGA is capute then it's possible that Michael P will have Sebonack positioned for an east end opening.

Cliff:

I'm not a fan of Baltusrol from an architectural perspective. The Lower just puts me to sleep save for the final two holes.

However ...

Give the club big time credit for realizing an opening in '05 when TCC bailed out and they jumped in. The folks in Springfield knew that the head honchos in Far Hills were going another direction for the US Open in future years and with all the NY sites nearby there was no reason to stay with Baltusrol.

The club understands that and is now in bed with the PGA. How ironic that a club that forever followed the amateur code with only USGA Championships now works closely with the foremost professional golfers group on the planet.

Baltusrol knows full well that without the US Open the PGA is the only game in town in order to stay relevant to big time golf. I salute the club for avoiding what has happened to a great many other clubs -- non relevance.

[Cliff Hamm]

I will not defend the architectural merits of Baltusrol.  I will say, however, that is has provided far from "ho hum" tournaments. WFW had drama but unfortunately it was of the negative sort.  When the eventual winner holed out no one thought Oglivy would be that person.  No one also believed that the others would absolutely blow it and that Mickleson would have a mental melt down.  Excitement perhaps but not great golf. 

Aren't the final two or 3 holes what a tournament with excitement should come down to?  In basketball and football it is the final two minutes and golf is not different.  Who remembers what Watson did before his chip in at Pebble?  Ditto for Tiger at Augusta. 

I'll simply state that there are better venues from an architectural standpoint but that Baltusrol has more than held its own based on leaderboards.

[John Blain]

It has now come to the point where you are either a "USGA" club or a "PGA of America"club. As Matt pointed out Baltusrol is now seen as a site for PGA of America events. It is unlikely another US Open will be staged there in my lifetime (I'm 48). Oak Hill CC in Rochester is going through the same thing. After lobbying big-time over the past decade to get another Open it is apparent that they too have become a PGA of America club. They were told upon agreeing to host the '98 US Amateur that they were on a "short list" to host another US Open but the invitation never came so they decided to jump back into bed with the PGA of America.

John

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it possible the the membership and the dollars are the deciding factors in determining which organization will gain the favor of the golf club ?

[Lawrence Largent]

Friend of mine is a member of Baltusrol and he said that its night and day on how organized the PGA is compared to the USGA.  He also said that the Amateur will be coming back to Baltusrol in the near future also.

Lawrence

[Matt_Cohn]

Friend of mine is a member of Baltusrol and he said that its night and day on how organized the PGA is compared to the USGA.  He also said that the Amateur will be coming back to Baltusrol in the near future also.

Lawrence

I wonder if they'll play the Upper for match play again?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

It is elementary that $$ is always a factor with any big time event.

Baltusrol got put on the back burner after the '93 event. Other events have surpassed it in terms of overall dollars produced -- see Bethpage Black as a clear example.

When WF got the nod over Baltusrol for the '06 event you could see the writing on the wall.

You also have the USGA moving more and more towards the public model for future US Opens -- Torrey is a quick example - the future US Open at Chambers Bay is another example. Public facilities are more involved because they will bend to get the event likely more so than a private club. In years past it was the storied northeast / midwest private clubs that were the backbone for US Opens, Amateurs, et al.

JPBlain:

Sad to hear that happen to Oak Hill / East because the layout in Rochester is even more unique and demanding than Baltusrol Lower. As you correctly noted, it's unlikely for the foreseeable future that a future US Open will head in that direction.

No doubt the camps have clearly been IDed -- you are either in one or the other. Doubtful clubs will overlap with a PGA and then five years a US Open.

As an additional note -- Herb Kohler was courting the USGA for a Open but it seems that will not come to pass - especially if Erin Hills is set to jump into the fray. I can't imagine two Opens in such a small area unlike those that are held in the largest of metro areas like NYC.

Hats off to Baltusrol in keeping themselves active in the major championship scene. If they had failed to align themselves with the PGA it's highly likely their involvement in the highest of big time professional events would have faded from view.

[John Moore II]

I think the trend towards the public courses is a conscious effort from the governing bodies (though the PGA has yet to get on board in a big way like the USGA) but I also think its a product of having a great number of very very good public golf courses. Prior to only a few years ago, the only public options for major venues (aside from the enigmas of courses like Tanglewood) were Pinehurst (though not even there for a long time) Pebble Beach and possibly Bethpage Black (though the Black had fallen into disrepair by the mid-90's) Whistling Straits did not exist, Chambers did not, Torrey was an afterthought (rightfully so??) Bandon Resort was not built (though I do not think it has a chance of hosting a major due to location) The Ocean Course was not around until 1991. Public courses are starting to host majors now because there are more of them that are worthy of hosting majors. Not to mention, many of the old school private clubs are beginning to realize that hosting majors does very little to increase the amount of prestige the club carries.


Evidence of Public Clubs being better now:
Golfweek Classic top 100--91 Private, 9 Daily Fee/Resort
Golfweek Modern top 100--67 Private, 33 Daily Fee/Resort

[Phil McDade]

Pat:



As an additional note -- Herb Kohler was courting the USGA for a Open but it seems that will not come to pass - especially if Erin Hills is set to jump into the fray. I can't imagine two Opens in such a small area unlike those that are held in the largest of metro areas like NYC.

Given that Kohler's WStraits will be hosting two PGAs and the Ryder Cup in the next several years, it won't be seeing the US Open anytime soon. Herb really wanted the US Open, but the PGA's offer was too sweet to pass up. Erin Hills is definitely aiming for the US Open -- the PubLinks seemed to go well there this year, it has the AM coming up soon, and likely to pursue the Open aggressively.

Matt -- I'm not sure I'd worry too much about the exact geographic area hosting a major. The USGA in particular looks at regions (Midwest) moreso than specific cities (Sheboygan). I think you're right about Metro NYC's ability to host several majors within a short timespan, but reports out of Detroit suggest galleries are down at current PGA, perhaps tied to depressed Michigan economy?

[JSlonis]

The word around Baltusrol a couple of weeks ago was that the club was planning a significant $$$ project for the Upper Course.  Some new tees, regrading of the 2nd fairway, adding additional tees/length, etc.

[John Moore II]

Phil--I might say that the decrease in attendance at the PGA is more tied to the absense of Mr. Eldrick (Tiger) Woods, moreso that the economic conditions in Detriot.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil McDade:

Keep in mind this -- the PGA has made a clear preemptive strike for midwestern sites -- the USGA is now only able to use Erin Hills as their main midwest site. It's also possible Olympia Fields may resurface at some time for the immediate Chicago crowd.

The USGA is left with the extreme coasts -- east and west.

Be very curious to see if the PGA doesn't attempt to woe other sites if a future Open or the relationship between host clubs and the USGA doesn't improve. I'm speaking specifically about Shinnecock.

Phil, ticket sales for the PGA have always lagged behind the US Open. They have had sellouts when Tiger is in the field but always with a much latter close out date -- in the case of Baltusrol in '05 I believe it didn't happen until a week or so before the event started.

Much of that is due to the fact that tons of potential volunteers are not available for service because of various vacations schedules and the like. The August date is really not ideal in so many ways. This year the absence of Tiger also plays a key role.

JKMoore:

The issue for the USGA is somewhat similar to what the NCAA B-ball committee faced. They could stay in the comforts of a 20,000 arena for Final Four Games or go to the bigger stadiums that generally host football / baseball and get additional revenues.

The public venues are not only quality courses but they have less of the internal membership politics to sort out. Since a number of the public courses are willing to do just about anything to land the event since they have not held it - as opposed to other private clubs which have and now want some additional consideration in the final terms -- it appears the public model will be one that is followed more and more.

The PGA was very late into the game in getting so many of the classic designed layouts -- the tide only began to turn when Awtrey took the full reins and realized that going to a Pecan Valley wasn't going to cut it any longer.

[John Moore II]

Matt-The public courses have more to gain by holding a major. Torrey Pines and Bethpage both raised fees a fair amount (though I know Bethpage had to agree not to raise them but so much) Pinehurst and Pebble have all, over time I am sure gotten very high amounts of recognition and additional play simply because they have hosted a major. Private clubs, such as Oakmont and Shinnecock stand nothing to gain but headaches from hosting majors anymore. Thats why public clubs are working, less membership considerations and BS to deal with.

[Matt_Ward]

JKMoore:

You're missing one thing -- the classic old-school clubs want more from the USGA and the USGA NOW has the leverage in going to other possibilities. Much of the mindset of the USGA from years past was that ONLY private clubs could host an event of the stature of the US Open. That has changed.

The reality is that the USGA doesn't need the old dynamic as much as the existing classic school clubs think they do.

The sad part in this interplay is that the possibility does exist for many of the key private clubs to simply withdraw from that competitive scene for any number of reasons -- you listed a few of them.

It's sad because I'd like to see Shinnecock on a rotation of a major every 6-7 years but that's not going to happen.

[John Moore II]

Matt-I think the push for public venues has also come from the quality of Opens that have been contested on them. Had Pinehurst turned out a low score or otherwise poor championship in 99, and then Bethpage been poor in 02, I don't think the USGA would have really gone forward with hosting Open's at public courses.

[Matt_Ward]

JKMoore:

The competitive scene is clearly a factor -- but the $$ that Pinehurst and Bethpage raised is the ultimate trump card in the mix.

Next year's event at Bethpage could break records by a large margin provided Tiger is back in the mix to defend the title he won there in '02.

The registers are already ringing off the hook !