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Patrick_Mucci

Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« on: August 04, 2008, 10:19:48 PM »
get courses firm and fast despite Mother Nature when that is the membership's/superintendent's quest ?

Winged Foot has benefited from hiring Matt Burrows as the Superintendent.

Matt strives for firm and fast conditions, which can make a course hum.
I heard from several contestants that Winged Foot was in spectacular playing condition for the Anderson.  Someone mentioned that it wasn't unusual for balls to bounce 10 feet high upon impact.

The ideal maintainance meld seems like it should be every courses goal.
But, is it ?

Are courses which seek the ideal maintainance meld in the great minority ?

When playing Winged Foot recently, a member of our foursome commented that the course wasn't in great shape because the greens and fairways had brown/yellow grass on them, and that although they looked slow, they were much faster than they looked.

Two members of the foursome descended on him and told him that he didn't know what he was talking about.

But, aren't his comments reflective of the general mood or concept of what most members think about "conditions of play" ?

Without a knowledgeable Board and Green Committee I don't see how a superintendent can risk striving for F&F.

Is the PGA Tour and TV to blame for this ?

PART II

Does a golf course have to be kept close to the firm and fast "edge" to account for the variables as presented by Mother Nature ?

Will a membership tolerate brownish/yellowish/green as the universal norm ?

Will they tolerate patches of less than ideal turf when Mother Nature turns against the golf course ?

Can courses without fairway irrigation systems, such as Newport and others, set the example of what the playing surfaces should be like ?

Matt_Ward

Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 10:25:32 PM »
Pat:

From my experiences this year and in the years previous -- too many courses in the metro NYC are way over-watered and super soft because superintendents prefer to keep things that way because they don't want to stress courses too much for fear that grass will die or that the overall appearance will not be verdant green.

Over the course of time membership becomes used to the soft / total green situation and therefore any hint of a ball bouncing to any degree of anything remotely close to excess is seen as out of character.

As you and others know -- the people who play these courses will rave about the firm and fast conditions overseas but when they return home they prefer to play layouts where just about anything hit into a green -- no less than a fairway metal -- will make a ball mark as deep as Crater Lake in Oregon.

Pat, superintendents by and large take the more conservative approach because there's little upside for them in keeping on course on edge with fast and firm conditions. The PGA Tour is not to blame for this as much as many might believe. The issue is that so many people have been weened on total green layouts and they had best get used to the fact that water usage in the years ahead will be much less so.

John Moore II

Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 10:59:53 PM »
Can Newport set an example? Cetainly they can, but for whom and to what end? And what example are they setting exactly? Sure, they can set an arbitrary example of firm fast conditions but will anyone follow the example?

-Some memberships may tolerate yellow/brown areas, it depends on how educated they are about playing conditions and the like. My membership, I do not think would accept it, therefore, my Super uses "about 600,000 gallons a night" (direct quote from him) to water the course. But overall, the public and memberships don't want to see any yellowing on the course and this is why we now have tree-to-tree irrigation, at some point in time, right or wrong, Augusta National became the norm and the standard for conditions (though I have a feeling that ANGC still plays firm and fast, unless is rains. I could be wrong, I've never played there), though I'm certain any membership would brown up their underwear if they were told how much their dues would need to increase in order to have Augusta conditions (at least in the realm of 'average' private courses)

-Will they tolerate less than ideal conditions when Nature turns bad? Can't answer for everyone, but my membership is ok with it. Recently we experienced daytime high temperatures of 95+ degrees and then evening rain of more than 1 inch per day. This went on for 8 days. We almost lost some of the greens, and a few are still highly stressed. But we did our best to educate the members, and they were fine with it. It was totally beyond our control.

-Education is the key, I think most, or at least MANY memberships will agree to do a lot of things as long as they understand why its happening and how its going to benefit them in the long run.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 05:30:03 AM »
I think a big problem with keeping courses on the edge in terms of f&f is that if something goes wrong, the greens are in trouble.  Its my understanding from reading R&A stuff and attending a presentation that in fact part of the mantra of f&f and encouraging bents/fescues to flourish will ultimately mean that greens will be slower.  The plus side is they will require much less tender loving care and be a much more consistent playing surface with the added benefit of consistency in firmness from approach areas through greens.  I am not sure many private club members are ready for browning out and greens which will often be seen as inferior in the height of season.  This is probably especially true of clubs which are closed 3-5 months of the year.  That added benefit of consistency in the greens in good and bad times is virtually lost for the really rough times. 

My club has been going through this process of encouraging bents/fescues and the greens have taken a bit of a hit.  The club was always known for its excellent greens and many members just don't understand why its such a big deal to have to water and feed a load if the final product is lovely.  Its a hard argument to go against if the club has the resources to create these lovely conditions. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to New
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 06:34:33 AM »
If the quest for fast and firm conditions in a regional growing area creates another intensive level of maintenance to achieve, then I'm not so sure I'm on that bandwagon.

I'd vote for simple as long it's not soggy.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 02:47:10 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 07:04:13 AM »
Pat,

I'm all for fast and firm playing conditions.   The only problem beyond the visual one is real estate and technology. 

Golf courses, particularly in Westchester County, NY, sit on very expensive real estate.  Meanwhile, technology has advanced to the point in which golf courses require lengthening to keep up.   I would surmise that Winged Foot has lengthened the course as much as they can.  Buying up $5MM homes near the course in order to lengthen a few holes is not practical.

Will all the extra roll you get on fast and firm conditions, you are essentially shortening the golf course.   At the highest levels, these guys on the PGA tour are playing long Par 4s as driver, wedge.   I know fast and firm adds difficulties in putting, holding the greens, etc.  But it does take the long irons out of the bags of the Bubba Watsons of the world. 

If you're not going to do something about the golf ball, than "slow and soft" might be the only way.   I'd also be interested to see how these guys play in "slow and soft."  Is it easier to hit softer greens with a 5-iron or firm greens with a wedge?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 07:09:31 AM »
JWinick:  That set-up sounds like one of my nightmares.

Patrick:  I listen to irrigation consultants wax poetically about how their new expensive system is going to be more efficient and save water, but when a club membership has just paid a large assessment to put in a $2 million watering system, they are going to tell the superintendent he should turn it on.

Maidstone has the problem figured out -- they have no fairway irrigation at all.  Sadly, they are considering putting in a $3 million system.

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 07:11:35 AM »
Tom:

I was merely referring to the pro level.  For the rest of us, I love fast and firm.  The solution is a competition ball, but that won't happen anytime soon.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 07:27:48 AM »
this with 11+ inches of rainfall above normal for the year in metro NY and Conn.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 07:30:35 AM by Brad Klein »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 08:48:54 AM »
If the quest for fast and firm conditions in a regional growing area creates another intensive level of maintenance to achieve, then I'm not not so sure I'm on that bandwagon.

I'd vote for simple as long it's not soggy.

Paul,
Exactly.
While the average golfer may be woefully uneducated on what healthy turf can be and play like (i.e. not verdant green all the time- and the great fun that firm and bouncy can provide),
I'd say the average poster on this site is also woefully uneducated about the difficulties and EXPENSE of maintaining a course firm and fast in certain months-to say nothing of the practices used to acheive such(verticutting, topdressing,aerifying) that can take the course frequently temporarily out of play in peak season.
Simply turning the water off isn't automatically going to give one the ideal firm and fast meld we all covet.
Unless one enjoys reseeding in the fall.

Interestingly, in my area of major high maintenance budgets, two of the courses with the miniscule budgets (9 holers) provide wonderful playing surfaces(and excellent greens)with opposite approaches.
 One with no fairway or tee irrigation (yes you end up in a lot of crevices during dry spells) and the other which just soaks the fairways and keeps the thatch and height of cut up.
makes me wonder if the annual budgets are really worth it-especially given the talent level of 99% of golfers.
Although I do enjoy being lectured about stimp readingsand bunker firmness  by 28 handicappers. ;) ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 11:28:50 AM »
Tom:

I was merely referring to the pro level.  For the rest of us, I love fast and firm.  The solution is a competition ball, but that won't happen anytime soon.

JWinick,

How many PGA Tour events come to local clubs ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 11:41:49 AM »
Pat,

I'm all for fast and firm playing conditions.   The only problem beyond the visual one is real estate and technology. 

Golf courses, particularly in Westchester County, NY, sit on very expensive real estate.  Meanwhile, technology has advanced to the point in which golf courses require lengthening to keep up.   

I would surmise that Winged Foot has lengthened the course as much as they can.  Buying up $5MM homes near the course in order to lengthen a few holes is not practical.

Which club did that ?


Will all the extra roll you get on fast and firm conditions, you are essentially shortening the golf course.   At the highest levels, these guys on the PGA tour are playing long Par 4s as driver, wedge.   I know fast and firm adds difficulties in putting, holding the greens, etc.  But it does take the long irons out of the bags of the Bubba Watsons of the world.

I didn't know that the Bubba Watsons of the world played at local clubs, daily.

Why context membership play at local clubs in the realm of the long hitters on the PGA Tour ?  They're irrelevant
 

If you're not going to do something about the golf ball, than "slow and soft" might be the only way.   

While I agree on un-suping the ball and equipment modifications, "slow and soft" would be the worst possible scenario.


I'd also be interested to see how these guys play in "slow and soft."  Is it easier to hit softer greens with a 5-iron or firm greens with a wedge?

When you go to soft greens the PGA Tour Pros transition the game from "GOLF" to "DARTS"



JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 11:49:13 AM »
Pat:

I'm familiar with the neighborhood surrounding Winged Foot.  If they wanted to lengthen the golf course in order to keep up with the technology in order to continue to be a tournament course, then purchasing expensive land around the club would be the only way to do it.  I'm not suggesting they should, but these are the choices faced when you have the equipment so out of control. 

I like fast and firm, but it does make the course play shorter.   Perhaps, 200-300 yards.   On the pro tour, these guys get an extra 20-40 yards of roll due to the playing conditions.   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why won't Mother Nature co-operate and what can be done to
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 12:04:01 PM »
JWinick,

Why do you care, when playing a round at a/your local club, what the PGA Tour Pros might do ? 

Why do golfers/clubs context their course within the realm of how PGA Tour Pros might play it ?  It's irrelevant.

Local club after local club has narrowed their fairways and irrigated their roughs.   Why ?

To emulate PGA Tour courses on TV ?   ?  ?

What I get a kick out of is how many courses added length by extending or creating new tees.  That gets their course rating/slope up.

But, when you play the course, the tee markers are well up from the marking plates.

In other words, they want to have their course rated as difficult, but, the members don't want to play it difficult.   It's conflicted, and, a joke.

There's nothing wrong with having a course play shorter due to F&F.

Older and higher handicap players might enjoy it more.

And, F&F puts a premium on accuracy, especially if you remove the absurd buffers of rough that prevent balls from entering hazards and let the land feed the hazards with all the balls they can accept.


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