Is/was there a conspiracy against Albert Warren Tillinghast ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In about a 25+/- mile radius AWT was responsible for

Baltusrol Lower
Baltusrol Upper
Somerset Hills
Ridgewood
Shackamaxon
Alpine
Fenway
Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Sunningdale
Bethpage Black
Bethpage Red

If any architect today had that curriculum vitae within that radius would they not be acclaimed as "The Best" of all time ?

Does his work/courses suffer from a desire to "spread" the wealth ?

Are courses ranked ahead of WFE, Fenway, Ridgewood, BPB, Quaker Ridge, Somerset Hills ............. deserving ?

What other architect has that collection of quality courses within a +/- 25 mile radius ?

[SPDB]

If any architect today had that curriculum vitae within that radius would they not be acclaimed as "The Best" of all time ?

I'm confused. Has somebody suggested otherwise? I don't imagine you'll find many people who would say that Tillinghast isn't among "The Best" of all time.

For example, I remember Ian Andrew doing a pretty compelling survey of his Top 25 architects, and only Colt and MacKenzie topped Tillinghast. He is certainly among the handful of Best architects of all time and any selection of one as the absolute best of all time is purely subjective.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

You missed the point.

That list, compressed into a +/- 25 mile radius is rather impressive.
Does any other architect have that resume within +/- 25 miles ?

Being "amongst" the best of all time is a rather vague ranking.

[David_Elvins]

If any architect today had that curriculum vitae within that radius would they not be acclaimed as "The Best" of all time ?

Pat,

I am a little confused too.  What does the proximity of an architect's courses have to do with rating the overall quality of his work?

[SPDB]

SPDB,

You missed the point.

That list, compressed into a +/- 25 mile radius is rather impressive.
Does any other architect have that resume within +/- 25 miles ?

Being "amongst" the best of all time is a rather vague ranking.

Pat - The point as originally stated, and different from what is stated above, wasn't clear. What is the conspiracy you are alluding to?

[David Stamm]

If any architect today had that curriculum vitae within that radius would they not be acclaimed as "The Best" of all time ?

Pat,

I am a little confused too.  What does the proximity of an architect's courses have to do with rating the overall quality of his work?

I tend to agree w/ this. Using this kind of argument, one could say that Ross was the best because he dominated the state of North Carolina like no other. (I'm getting an education on this from Ed Oden. Thanks Ed!) Does not Alister MacKenzie's reputation stem partly from the fact that he did so many great courses in so many places in the world (read spread out)? Likewise Colt? I think Tillie is definitely deserving of a place as one of the all time greats, but I'm not so sure this observation supports that position.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Flynn has a similar concentration of great works around Philadelphia.  That's why a few guys down there are over the top about his genius.

There's nobody alive who can rank architects, because there's nobody who understands what they had to work with in each location except they themselves.  You can only rank courses and Mr. Tillinghast is well represented in such lists, but he's not alone.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Your premise makes very little sense.   Isn't Somerset Hills more than 25 miles from NYC?

Tom Doak,

Flynn's concentration of great work around Philadelphia is just one of many reasons I am fascinated (not at all over the top) by William Flynn.  In considering my favorite courses around my home town, I was intrigued that Flynn was involved in almost all of them.  However, the fact is, some of his most innovative and best work is/was not in Philadelphia including Shinnecock Hills, Kittansett, Indian Creek, Pocantico Hills, Mill Road Farm, Boca Raton North and South courses and Cascades.  Flynn was a genius at golf architecture.  I find his work far more fascinating than I do Tillinghast.  However, I have not yet studied Somerset Hills and San Francisco GC.

Flynn's work in the Philadelphia area (mostly within but some beyond the 25 mile radius) includes:

Merion East
Merion West
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Rolling Green
Huntingdon Valley
Manufacturers
Doylestown
Pine Valley (limited design work)
Lancaster (+25)
Lehigh (+25)
Bala
Atlantic City (+25)
North Hills
McCall Field
Springhaven
Marble Hall (now Green Valley)
Plymouth CC
Springdale
Sunnybrook (now Flourtown)
Seaview Pines (+25)
Whitemarsh Valley
Woodcrest

[Jim Franklin]

Wayne -

Have you been to Baltimore Country Club yet? It is a lot closer than San Francisco and you can get a pretty good idea of how good Tillie was there too. Let me know when you want to come down.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

I had a lunch meeting there once and had a very brief look around.  Thank you for your invitation to come down and visit, you are most kind.  I will gladly contact you to set something up.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim,

Don't take anything less than three a side from Wayne!

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

I have a torn tendon in my left ring finger and a hairline fracture in the same finger.  I haven't stop playing--even though I also had a high ankle sprain on my left foot.  So now I forget how to play golf and can't get over to my left side.  I stink!  Therefore, I'll gladly accept 3 shots a side 

[Mike Sweeney]

Baltusrol Lower
Baltusrol Upper
Somerset Hills
Ridgewood
Shackamaxon
Alpine
Fenway
Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Sunningdale
Bethpage Black
Bethpage Red

It must be something in the water over there in Jersey. Matt Ward thinks Fishers Island is 75 miles from NYC, and Pat thinks Somerset is 25 miles from Bethpage. Does Google Maps work in Jersey??

If Wayne is allowed to add in Atlantic City and Lancaster, I would take Flynn in Philly over Tilly in NY Met. the courses that Pat has listed are all sort of one dimensional parkland courses. If I am hosting USGA events, they are great but I prefer a variety of venues and styles.

I would also take Ross in Rhode Island, which has less traffic, over the Tilly list.

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

Match my triple-bypass, diabetes, high blood pressure & we'll play even!

[Phil_the_Author]

A few courses of Tilly's in the area that were left off that list:

The ORIGINAL Bethpage Blue, site of the 1936 USGA Publinks with the Red & considered it every bit it's equal in those days. In fact, there were more exhibition matches played on the Blue Course in the 30's & 40's than any of the others.

Gone is Fresh Meadow... it only hosted the Open & the PGA, and the Norwood CC received much acclaim as well over in NJ & within the radius specified & the Jackson Heights CC.

I understand the Hempstead CC is a bit of a course as well as Saxon Woods, Rockaway HC, Sands Point, Scarsdale, Suneagles at Fort Monmouth

No Pat, there is no conspiracy; maybe just a lack of respect for men like Tilly & Flynn & Maxwell & so many others who ARE NOT IN GOLF'S HALL OF FAME!

Without these men who created the playing fields that allowed for and defined the greatness of men like Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Nelson, Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Player & Eldrick Woods being honored within its walls it will remain a Hall of Shame.

There is absolutely no reason or excuse that these men should have gone unhonored for so long, especially since many of them, as in the case of Tilly, had already passed on BEFORE the Hall was ever opened.

That they aren't in is either a conspiracy of the type that pat sees or such an egregious oversight that is beyond explaining why it has yet to be corrected.

Time to step off of my soap box...

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,

Your premise makes very little sense.   Isn't Somerset Hills more than 25 miles from NYC?

Tom Doak,

Flynn's concentration of great work around Philadelphia is just one of many reasons I am fascinated (not at all over the top) by William Flynn.  In considering my favorite courses around my home town, I was intrigued that Flynn was involved in almost all of them.  However, the fact is, some of his most innovative and best work is/was not in Philadelphia including Shinnecock Hills, Kittansett, Indian Creek, Pocantico Hills, Mill Road Farm, Boca Raton North and South courses and Cascades.  Flynn was a genius at golf architecture.  I find his work far more fascinating than I do Tillinghast.  However, I have not yet studied Somerset Hills and San Francisco GC.

Flynn's work in the Philadelphia area (mostly within but some beyond the 25 mile radius) includes:

Merion East
Merion West
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Rolling Green
Huntingdon Valley
Manufacturers
Doylestown
Pine Valley (limited design work)
Lancaster (+25)
Lehigh (+25)
Bala
Atlantic City (+25)
North Hills
McCall Field
Springhaven
Marble Hall (now Green Valley)
Plymouth CC
Springdale
Sunnybrook (now Flourtown)
Seaview Pines (+25)
Whitemarsh Valley

He certainly didn't rack up the frequent flyer miles that Mackenzie did!

[John Moore II]

Pat--I am not sure if there is a collection of work by the same architect in a contained area that is of comparable quality. But that does not mean he is for sure the best.

Does the fact that the Esteemed Mr Doak has a good number of courses spread out over a large geographic area detract from how good he is at designing courses?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

How can you list Pine Valley as a Flynn course ?

While you've cited some terrific courses, you've also included some courses that would be considered in another tier.

Mike Sweeney,

I believe all the course cited fall within a 25 mile radius of the New York City limits.

Atlantic City is probably in excess of 60 miles from the Philadelphia city limits.

One dimensional ?

I think you have to consider the terrain on site.

But, if you think that Alpine and Baltusrol lower are similar, if not congruent, might I suggest an opthamologist

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I listed all the local courses Flynn worked on and clearly listed the ones beyond 25 mile radius and also noted that Flynn did limited design work at Pine Valley.

Which courses are you familiar with in the Philadelphia area?  I'm probably more familiar with more courses near NYC than you are of those near Philadelphia.  Granted some of the courses, are not a top-tier in Philadelphia, but most compare most favorably with the courses you listed.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

I thought that Tillinghast designed the Philadelphia Cricket Club, not Flynn.

Which courses that I listed have you played ?

I've played seven of the courses you listed.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

I had a lunch meeting there once and had a very brief look around.  Thank you for your invitation to come down and visit, you are most kind.  I will gladly contact you to set something up.

I live right around the corner from the club and am always looking for a reason to play. The fall is the best time so let me know when you want to come down. Bring that Sully character too, he needs to see Five Farms as well.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney,

I believe all the course cited fall within a 25 mile radius of the New York City limits.

Atlantic City is probably in excess of 60 miles from the Philadelphia city limits.

Seems like Google is STILL having a Jersey problem: 

Holland Tunnel to Somerset Hills - 42 miles

Walt Whitman Bridge to ACCC - 53 miles

Pat,

Factoring in Holland Tunnel traffic it is not even a close call, Somerset might as well be in Ohio on Fridays in the summer !

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

Hold the phone buckeroo -- read what I posted on the other thread in question.

I rated courses in the greater NYC within 75 miles of Times Square with the EXCEPTION of all courses located on Long Island.

Last I checked -- Fisher's Island is part and parcel of NY State and is considered a part of LI although in functional terms it really has more involvement with CT.

Mike, as Pat suggested it might be time for a visit to the opthamologist.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Tillinghast designed the original 18 holes at Philadelphia Cricket.  Within 4 years, Flynn was brought in to improve 12 of them.

I didn't ask how many of the Philadelphia area courses you played, I asked which ones.

Of the ones on your shorter list, I played:

Baltusrol Lower
Baltusrol Upper
Fenway
Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Bethpage Black
Bethpage Red

[Mike Sweeney]

Last I checked -- Fisher's Island is part and parcel of NY State and is considered a part of LI although in functional terms it really has more involvement with CT.

Matt,

Finally I understand. You WERE the writer of the Animal House line "Double Secret Probation" and the residuals allow you to play Bethpage Black over 200 times.  As long as Dean Wormer and you understand, it works for me.