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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rock Creek Cattle Company
« on: August 04, 2008, 04:46:34 AM »
There have been some murmurings about RCCC, so I thought I'd try my hand at a description of the 7th.

It is not really called the "Rocking 7" or "Rocker."  I just made that up.  A homage to the place.  It could refer to a livestock brand, the "Rocking 7"  (a "7" standing on a quarter circle or a rocking chair rail.)   After all, this is a cattle company. But I was more thinking in terms of the mining heritage of the region.  In early mining a "rocker" was a machine or process that shook things up.  Once things started  bouncing around, the lighter (and generally worthless) stuff would get thrown off and the heavier metals such as gold would stay in the rocker.  So a rocker separated value from the junk.   

So what does this have to do with a golf hole?  Weil, first of all, as will be explained below, while the first 6 holes are fantastic, it is at No. 7 where things get shaken up a bit.  But more generally, golf holes like the Rocking 7 (and courses like RCCC) ought to shake up golf design by providing a point of comparison so we may better separate value from junk.   And then there is the giant rock in the middle of the fairway.  Lastly the hole just plain ROCKS.

By the time golfers get to the Rocker, they may already be in awe of the golf course, as they would have just played six outstanding golf holes the likes of which they had never seen before;  over and around gigantic moraine ridges (think of dunes, only in a mountain setting and with ancient boulders instead of grains of sand,) hog-backed and humped landing areas, and deep hollows to greens that flow with the surrounding landscape.  Fantastic golf.   

But when the golfer reaches the 7th tee and turns to face the hole, he or she may sense that the thrills are just beginning.  The stretch between the seventh tee and the seventeenth green is like the golf version of whitewater rafting.  The elevation probably drops over 350 feet in this 11 hole  stretch, but it is the twists, turns, rolls, ridges and whoop-tee-doos (for lack of a better phrase) that provide the thrill.   The seventh isn't necessarily better, more challenging, or even more fun.  But it stands out because it provides terrific scale model of the entire experience.   In other words, this one hole encompasses much that is great about RCCC and about golf course design at its best.   

Some photos and descriptions.

From the back tee, 487 yards, the golfer must play almost over the edge of the 6th green and over the huge rolling moraine ridge with the boulder in the center.   The hole plays significantly downhill, but the back tee is lower than the next tee forward, which is up the hill to the left. No sense giving these big hitters any more advantages  . . . 


From behind the 447 yard tee one really gets a sense that one is at the top of the course.  While the visibility is better from up on the tee, the golfer cannot see what lies beyond the huge, hog-backed hump shown a few photos below . . .



The beautiful 6th sits below and to the right of the 447 yard tee, again adding to the feel of being above the entire course.  (I won’t get into commenting on that hole now, except to say that those fairway rolls look miniscule in the photo as compared to how they look real life.).


The next photo is taken from between the tee and the first roll.  This is one of may humped or hog-backed landing areas on the course.   Again, photo does not indicate the size of the moraine ridge.  To give you some idea, the large boulder on the right may be as big as my small car.  The boulder sticking out of the middle of the fairway (barely visible in the middle of the photo} is large enough that a foursome could use it as a picnic table, even with a few caddies.   While the photos don't fully show it, the fairway cascades down to level of the green, well below the tee, and then zigs and zags around to large offset but opposing ridges that help guard the green.  The boulder in the middle will probably serve as a aiming point  for most, but there are more options than just this one.


From near the middle boulder, one can see that the hole doglegs left, tempting the golfer to try and cut the corner a bit.


While the short hitter who ventures a tad left can shorten the hole, he may still face a long, blind approach . . .

Likewise, while the big bomber who leans left stay in the fairway and have only a wedge in, it will likely be blind.  The green is probably only 115 yards from where this photo was taken, but is nowhere in site.


The road less traveled from the tee will likely be well to the right, over the pile of  boulders in the right rough. While this looks to be a line of death (especially from the very back) there is actually plenty of fairway past the rocks.


From here even the shorter hitter might be able to see part of the green, provided he made the carry in the first place. 


. . . and while it will take a monstrous drive, the longer driver might be able to make it all the way to the bottom of the hill and see at least part of the green.   But of course this may not be the best place to be for some of the pins.


Unlike many supposedly great par fours, this one stays interesting through the green.  The ridge left of the fairway smoothly feeds down into it, while the ridge on the right side drops abruptly into a swale that runs across the front right.  Internally, there is plenty of movement, but it all feels natural.     The day I walked the course I did not have a single club with me, but I had a golf ball, and I probably spent 20 or thirty minutes probably spent 15 rolling and bouncing the ball on and around this green and had a great time doing it.  And the bunkering scheme?   Perfectly absent.

Some shots of the green from a variety of angles.

Notice the transition from the native to the fairway.   In places the bordering native was thicker but much was just this.  Ideal.




I thought this hawk might take my ball.  If he had, I would have had to have found a round rock so I could keep expirimenting with the green.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 02:12:52 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Nugent

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 05:06:06 AM »
Great photos and descriptions.  Hope you do similar threads for other holes at Rock Creek. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 03:13:27 PM »
David:

Thanks for posting your pictures of this hole, although it's a hard one to depict.

We have not named the holes at Rock Creek but I fear if we did that most of them would have "rock" in the title, especially if you asked the construction crew about it!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 04:33:31 PM »
I'll echo the appreciation for taking the time and energy to compile the photos and descriptions.

One of the aspects that concerns me is an apparent lack of vertical spines. It concerns me because I like to be efficient with my steps. If the rolly polly is just a series of horizontals I'd fear my hips may suffer before reaching the ninth.

Can you ease my concerns and tell me the walk is not an arduous one?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 04:52:05 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 04:49:25 PM »
Adam...I think the walk is a tough one...the fairways have a lot of movement...up and down, right to left, often on the same hole.  It's a great piece of land and makes for some very fun golf, but it is a tough walk...considering most Montana golf is fairly flat.  :)
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 05:12:12 PM »
Speaking of walking, what is the policy/practice?  Walking only, carts occasionally?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 05:15:10 PM »
They have carts and we did see some on the course....the cart paths are dirt and well hidden...you really don't know they are there except up near some of the tee's...
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jim Colton

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 05:30:56 PM »
Looks like great fun.  What is the average elevation of the course?

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 05:32:26 PM »
Curious, if Deer Lodge is at ± 6,000 feet how much does elevation play into this course.  I'm a flat lander so help me out.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 05:33:26 PM »
Looks like great fun.  What is the average elevation of the course?
Great minds??
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 05:39:15 PM »
Deer Lodge is nowhere near 6000ft...a little over 4100ft...the course has about 300ft of elevation gain to its highest point...the elevation figures into the equation somewhat...especially if you are use to playing at sea level...the wind is a much bigger factor though.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 05:49:18 PM »
Quote
Also, I think #16 is 465 yards from the back tee.  Maybe you missed that one ... but to me 465 yards isn't short, even at 4700 feet elevation.

From Tom's post on the other thread.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 05:50:53 PM »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »
David:

Thanks for posting your pictures of this hole, although it's a hard one to depict.

We have not named the holes at Rock Creek but I fear if we did that most of them would have "rock" in the title, especially if you asked the construction crew about it!

Tom, it is really hard to do the course justice.  It doesn't help that I have yet to have the opportunity to take pictures in ideal light.   Next time I am in the area a may do some experimenting with a wider lens.  These were just with my pocket camera.

I was just messing around with the name, and to tell you the truth the obvious "rock" reference came to me last, after the mining and the ranching references.  Tells you something about my convoluted perspective I guess.

Did you ever consider bunkering the hole?   I am extremely glad you didn't, but wonder if it is a hard decision to make, given the public's expectations. 
______________________________

I'll echo the appreciation for taking the time and energy to compile the photos and descriptions.

One of the aspects that concerns me is an apparent lack of vertical spines. It concerns me because I like to be efficient with my steps. If the rolly polly is just a series of horizontals I'd fear my hips may suffer before reaching the ninth.

Can you ease my concerns and tell me the walk is not an arduous one?

Adam,  There is no lack of vertical spines.  There just do not happen to be any on the two holes depicted in the photos. 

I guess one does not see any bunkers either in these photos, but I guarantee you there are bunkers on the course.  In fact there are some great bunkers on the 8th, but like on many of MacKenzie's holes the bunkers are not visible when one looks back at the hole.

As for the walk, I've walked the site about four times and while I wouldn't call it an easy walk, I did not find it strenuous.   Others might disagree, but I'd say the walk is about same degree of difficulty as Ballyneal, but definitely easier than Sand Hills.    Most of the tees are pretty close to the previous green, and there are nice trails for walkers.  I believe the 6th even has a "walker's tee" which ties in with the 5th green-site.

There are caddies so that takes a load off. 

The walk was a lot harder before they put the bridge in on the 13th.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 05:54:51 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 06:09:27 PM »
I believe Mat said there's 124 bunkers....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 08:14:59 PM »
Deer Lodge is nowhere near 6000ft...a little over 4100ft...the course has about 300ft of elevation gain to its highest point...the elevation figures into the equation somewhat...especially if you are use to playing at sea level...the wind is a much bigger factor though.
Thanks, Craig....bad info or interpretation from my Googleing.  It would appear that the town proper is at 4567 feet so your number is probably spot on. 
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »
If I remember right, the clubhouse is at about 4700 feet ... the seventh tee is the high point at 4960, and the seventeenth green is the low point at just over 4600.  Holes 2-6 are all substantially uphill, even though the second and third don't really look it; and then you are tacking your way downhill all the way to #17 green before heading back up the creek to the clubhouse on #18.

I'm sure a lot of the members will take carts, but we designed the course explicitly so it could be walked.  In fact, early in the process we were considering a remote starting point further up the hill (so the uphill walk wouldn't be so strenuous), but once Mr. Foley started talking about people taking carts up to the first tee I realized that would put EVERYONE in a cart, so we canned the idea and tried harder to make it walkable.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2008, 09:33:28 PM »
Sounds like a similar rock condition as at Sutton's Bay....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2008, 10:30:37 PM »
Shivas,

what did you think if the 7th?   Any fun?

Speaking of walking, what is the policy/practice?  Walking only, carts occasionally?
I'm fat and out of shape.

"You forgot lazy and disrespectful."

______________________________________________________


Sounds like a similar rock condition as at Sutton's Bay....

Michael,

I've never played Sutton's Bay, so I cannot say, but I did see the RCCC site fairly early in the process, and it was incredibly rocky.  That being said, from a golf perspective the rocks are almost entirely a non-issue now.  There is the huge boulder on the 7th and the pile on the right of seven, but aside from that I cannot think of any rocks that might be considered elements of the course.   Maybe my mind is blanking  but other than a few rocky washes in front of tees with rocks, there may not be any.

It is really pretty incredible that Doak's team could take the rocks almost completely out of play without sacrificing verisimilitude.   The course feels like part of the natural landscape yet the landscape has rocks popping up all over while and the course does not.   

I hit some really bad shots including a few balls into the native, and I never once had a problem with rocks.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 12:20:28 AM »
From my perspective, and a look into the future, or the past, when the native grasses are not so GREEN!

Tee shot: Not the crazy tee.



View of the rock, from the rock. You guys should ask Tom about the rock story.



View from the edge of the hill. Probably the furthest point you can hit you drive w/o it ending up another 50 yards further. Down the hill.


View from the bottom of the hill (about where my good friend Rick was standing in the previous shot). And just so you can scale it correctly, Rick is about 8' tall.

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2008, 07:26:56 PM »
Dave M / Shivas:

Just wanted to share my thoughts on the 7th and 11th holes at Rock Creek.

I really enjoyed both of them -- including the 16th which I've mentioned on another thread.

The back tee box at the 7th requires some very careful thoughts on how to play the hole. I did hit driver and was fortunate to hit a slight draw during my later afternoon round with no wind blowing and was fortunate to have the shot reach the 104 yardage marker and from there hit a SW into the hole. I was VERY fortunate because the angle with a draw requires that the tee shot stay to the left of the directional rock at the top of the hill. Any shot that is played with a driver and is pulled slightly to the left of that aiming point will either be blocked out by the hill that comes creeping into the picture from the left side or if one gets a very bad bounce you can simply run into some serious unplayable situations.

No doubt -- the action starts at the tee and with different tee boxes in play the hole can be a joy for all types of players.

I also have to salute the green and the photos that have been posted. It does require the best of plays no matter what you hit.

All in all, a grand hole with so much to talk about.

Shivas, let me add I am also a big fan of the 11th. The fall-off on the right doesn't come into the player's mind until someone tells you about it either before you play the hole for th efirst time or you find out for yourself. In some ways the drop-off to the right reminds me of what Doak did with, I believe, the 12th hole at Ballyneal.

I like how the upper fairway portion is the preferred landing area but which is narrower and also fraught with a bit of danger because of the two bunkers that are placed there. For a tee shot that heads right and reaches the far right corner, as mine did, the shot was only 100+ yards but the angle to the green was both blind and narrower. Well done hole and when you add in a number of others I do agree w David M that the place ROCKS.

More to comment on later.

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 01:54:23 AM »
David M:

I'd be interested in your comments on the hole that precedes #7. I found the 6th to be an equally fun hole to play with a wide variety of challenges starting at the tee and then with the inclusion of the "ocean wave" fairway that is a good bit more intense than the photos you posted would suggest.

One other thing -- I mentioned about the 16th hole on another thread. How do you see the qualities of such holes when held together -- including the likes of #11 and any others you wish to throw into the mixture.

Jim Nugent

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2008, 09:03:30 AM »
David, are you going to profile more holes from Rock Creek?  Hope so...

Ryan Farrow

Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2008, 10:07:38 AM »
Matt, since it sounds like you are long hitter and a great player. What did you think of #5? Did you try and carry those bunkers on the right? Green? It just seems like a hole where a long aggressive player can get into a ton of trouble.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rock Creek Cattle Company; "Rocking 7" or "Rocker"
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2008, 11:09:08 AM »
Ryan:

Good question for Matt!  Like you, I am just as interested in what he thought of the shorter holes ... especially #5 and #15, although I assume he played the back tee on #15 and I would rather have seen him play it from the regular men's tee.