[C. Squier]

You gotta be fricking kidding me....

Clint, you can't be any good at golf. 

Nobody can think that much on the golf course and be any good....

If you're seriously telling me that you use that while on the golf course, what in God's green earth do you need a range finder for?

 Hell, why do you even need to make a stroke?

You should be able to just think the ball into the hole ...

Heaven forbid a high school level education and it's application on a golf course   

We should tee it up this fall, I'm as amazed by the 2 putter system as you are with my math.  Have you seen the South yet?

CPS

[Jeff Fortson]

Thank you, Jeff, for offering evidence that range finders save time.  20 minutes a round is a huge difference.  Just think, that gives us all another 20 minutes to argue about this topic after our round!

JWinick,

I think Jeff's reference has to be taken in context.  Jeff's refering to Pros who are notoriously slow when competing in a tournament.

If I walk and play in 2:30 to 2:45 to 3:00, I'd like to know how a rangefinder is going to cut 20 minutes off my round.

Point taken.  I don't think it will speed up the average golfer that much, if at all.  I don't think they should be promoted as making the game faster.  Maybe, "making getting your yardage more convenient" is fair.  

Patrick,

Do you think you could walk Bethpage Red in 2:45 in the afternoon on any given Saturday?  

Your question introduces additional elements.

If I was the first one to tee off ?   YES
If I was in the midst of the pack, NO.

Pace of play has been allowed to come to a snail's crawl by club and tournament officials.

There's a simple solution.

Fix the time of a round to X hours.
Clock golfers as they leave the 1st tee.
Clock them as they leave the 18th green.

If they're more than 10 minutes behind the group in front, and/or take more than X hours, they aren't permitted to play again and must forfeit a prepaid slow play assessment.

That way there's no micro management.

Let's say that the first 10 groups play in 3 hours and that the 11th group plays in 3:30.  Groups 12 and beyond can never reduce their time of play to less than 3:30.  Thus group # 11 has ruined pace of play for everyone who followed them, and as such, they should be heavily penalized.

If club's adopted and enforced this system, slow play would be reduced and in time eliminated.

Fortunately, you play at some nice clubs and there aren't as many crowds with better golfers playing in 10-20 minute intervals.  Most public golf courses run on 7-8 minute intervals between times which does more to jam up a course than anything else.  Put weekend warriors/I play once a year-guy/my wife and I are on vacation guys/bachelor party guys/I just got done watching the Masters and decided to pick this game up guy out in 8 minute times with no starter times and you have a recipe for disaster that couldn't be fixed by anything other than fines for finishing in over 4 hours.  


I'd agree.
A study I saw indicated that 10 minute intervals were optimal in getting the groups around the golf course.  7 minute intervals aren't the solution, they just pack more golfers on the same field of play.

I think people should be fined, if monitored, should they hold up an entire course.

I definitely agree.
See my proposal above.

Patrick,

The only hole in your proposal is that if the first group plays in 2:30 then you certainly can't expect everyone to keep up with that pace, even the group behind them.  However, if clubs could figure out a good, yet reasonable pace (some courses take longer than others to play) for their course they should enforce it.  I absolutely love your suggestion for holding a slow-play deposit as I think that would deter many from playing slow.  

Slow play and etiquette are the biggest problems in everyday golf, IMO.  I think every player should have to read and test out on Section 1 of the Rules of Golf before ever playing 18 holes.  The first thing covered in the Rules (Section 1) is titled... ETIQUETTE; BEHAVIOR ON THE COURSE.  It's the most essential aspect of the game and it's importance is paramount to an enjoyable game for all.  Matter of fact I am going to type it out word for word for all to read.....

Section I  ETIQUETTE; BEHAVIOR ON THE COURSE

Introduction

This Section provides guidelines on the manner in which the game of golf should be played.  If they are followed, all players will gain maximum enjoyment from the game.  The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times.

The Spirit of the Game

Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire.  The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules.  All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be.  This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Safety

Players should ensure that no one is standing close by or in a position to be hit by the club, the ball or any stones, pebbles, twigs or the like when they make a stroke or practice swing

Players should not play until the players in front are out of range.

Players should always alert greenstaff nearby or ahead when they are about to make a stroke that might endanger them.

If a player plays a ball in a direction where there is danger of hitting someone, he shoud immediately shout a warning.  The traditional word of warning in such situations is "fore".

Consideration for Other Players

Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking, or making unnecessary noise.

Players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

On the teeing ground, a player should not tee his ball until it is his turn to play. (big pet peev of mine)

Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball, or directly behind the hole, when a player is about to play.

On the putting green, players should not stand on another player's line of putt or, when he is making a stroke, cast a shadow over his line of putt.

Players should remain on or close to the putting green until all players in the group have holed out.

In stroke play, a player who is acting as a marker should, if necessary, on the way to the next tee, check with the player concerned and record it.

Pace of Play

Players should play at a good pace.  The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front.  If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group.

Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play.  When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee.  When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.

If a player believes his ball may be lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, to save time, he should play a provisional ball.

Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found.  They should not search more than five minutes before doing so.  Having allowed the group behind to play through, they should not continue play until that group has passed and is out of range.

Priority on the Course

Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group's pace of play.  Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round.

Care of the Course

Before leaving a bunker, players should carefully fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by them and any nearby made by others.  If a rake is within reasonable proximity of the bunker, the rake should be used for this purpose.

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made y the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself).  On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

Preventing Unnecessary Damage

Players should avoid causing damage to the course by removing divots when taking practice swings or by hitting the head of a club into the ground, whether in anger or for any other reason.

Players should ensure that no damage is done to the putting green when putting down bags or the flagstick.

In order to avoid damaging the hole, players and caddies should not stand too close to the hole and should take care during the handling of the flagstick and the removal of a ball form the hole.

Players should not lean on their clubs when on the putting green, particularly when removing the ball from the hole.

The flagstick should be properly replaced in the hole before the players leave the putting green.

Local notices regulating the movement of golf carts should be strictly observed.

Conclusion; Penalties for Breach

If players follow the guidelines in this Section, it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

If a player consistently disregards these guidelines during a round or over a period of time to the detriment of others, it is recommended that the Committee consider taking appropriate disciplinary action against the offending player.  Such action may, for example, include prohibiting play for a limited time on the course or in certain number of competitions.  This is considered to be justifiable in terms of protecting the interest of the majority of golfers who wish to play in accordance with these guidelines.

In the case of a serious breach of etiquette, the Committee may disqualify a player under Rule 33-7.


Sorry for such a long post/lecture to everyone.  I just can't stress enough how integral this section is to the enjoyment of the game.  I like to read it every now and then as a reminder to myself of what is expected of me on the course.


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The only hole in your proposal is that if the first group plays in 2:30 then you certainly can't expect everyone to keep up with that pace, even the group behind them.  

Why not ?

Isn't that the ultimate goal of speeding up play ?

Isn't that the inherent beauty of the system ?

Too often groups state that they're a full hole in front of the group behind them, forgetting or avoiding the fact that they are also two holes behind the group in front of them.

This system systemically attacks slow play.

It forces groups to play fast AND keep up with the group in front of them.

However, if clubs could figure out a good, yet reasonable pace (some courses take longer than others to play) for their course they should enforce it.  

As I said, each course has to determine a reasonable time and then enforce it.
Enforcement is critical to success.

I absolutely love your suggestion for holding a slow-play deposit as I think that would deter many from playing slow.  

The other beauty of the system is that the clock doesn't lie.
There's no confrontations, excuses, etc., etc..

Time out, time in, determine the differential and act accordingly.
It's such a simple solution.
But, it requires enforcement.

Slow play and etiquette are the biggest problems in everyday golf, IMO.  I think every player should have to read and test out on Section 1 of the Rules of Golf before ever playing 18 holes.  The first thing covered in the Rules (Section 1) is titled... ETIQUETTE; BEHAVIOR ON THE COURSE.  It's the most essential aspect of the game and it's importance is paramount to an enjoyable game for all.  Matter of fact I am going to type it out word for word for all to read.....

When I was in charge of the Junior Program at a club, this was the first thing the golfers were required to read and understand.

Then came the rules, then came playing the game.

It remains a good model.

Section I  ETIQUETTE; BEHAVIOR ON THE COURSE

Introduction

This Section provides guidelines on the manner in which the game of golf should be played.  If they are followed, all players will gain maximum enjoyment from the game.  The overriding principle is that consideration should be shown to others on the course at all times.

The Spirit of the Game

Unlike many sports, golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire.  The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules.  All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be.  This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Safety

Players should ensure that no one is standing close by or in a position to be hit by the club, the ball or any stones, pebbles, twigs or the like when they make a stroke or practice swing

Players should not play until the players in front are out of range.

Players should always alert greenstaff nearby or ahead when they are about to make a stroke that might endanger them.

If a player plays a ball in a direction where there is danger of hitting someone, he shoud immediately shout a warning.  The traditional word of warning in such situations is "fore".

Consideration for Other Players

Players should always show consideration for other players on the course and should not disturb their play by moving, talking, or making unnecessary noise.

Players should ensure that any electronic device taken onto the course does not distract other players.

On the teeing ground, a player should not tee his ball until it is his turn to play. (big pet peev of mine)

Players should not stand close to or directly behind the ball, or directly behind the hole, when a player is about to play.

On the putting green, players should not stand on another player's line of putt or, when he is making a stroke, cast a shadow over his line of putt.

Players should remain on or close to the putting green until all players in the group have holed out.

In stroke play, a player who is acting as a marker should, if necessary, on the way to the next tee, check with the player concerned and record it.

Pace of Play

Players should play at a good pace.  The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front.  If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group.

Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play.  When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee.  When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.

If a player believes his ball may be lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, to save time, he should play a provisional ball.

Players searching for a ball should signal the players in the group behind them to play through as soon as it becomes apparent that the ball will not easily be found.  They should not search more than five minutes before doing so.  Having allowed the group behind to play through, they should not continue play until that group has passed and is out of range.

Priority on the Course

Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group's pace of play.  Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round.

Care of the Course

Before leaving a bunker, players should carefully fill up and smooth over all holes and footprints made by them and any nearby made by others.  If a rake is within reasonable proximity of the bunker, the rake should be used for this purpose.

Players should carefully repair any divot holes made by them and any damage to the putting green made y the impact of a ball (whether or not made by the player himself).  On completion of the hole by all players in the group, damage to the putting green caused by golf shoes should be repaired.

Preventing Unnecessary Damage

Players should avoid causing damage to the course by removing divots when taking practice swings or by hitting the head of a club into the ground, whether in anger or for any other reason.

Players should ensure that no damage is done to the putting green when putting down bags or the flagstick.

In order to avoid damaging the hole, players and caddies should not stand too close to the hole and should take care during the handling of the flagstick and the removal of a ball form the hole.

Players should not lean on their clubs when on the putting green, particularly when removing the ball from the hole.

The flagstick should be properly replaced in the hole before the players leave the putting green.

Local notices regulating the movement of golf carts should be strictly observed.

Conclusion; Penalties for Breach

If players follow the guidelines in this Section, it will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

If a player consistently disregards these guidelines during a round or over a period of time to the detriment of others, it is recommended that the Committee consider taking appropriate disciplinary action against the offending player.  Such action may, for example, include prohibiting play for a limited time on the course or in certain number of competitions.  This is considered to be justifiable in terms of protecting the interest of the majority of golfers who wish to play in accordance with these guidelines.

In the case of a serious breach of etiquette, the Committee may disqualify a player under Rule 33-7.


Sorry for such a long post/lecture to everyone.  I just can't stress enough how integral this section is to the enjoyment of the game.  I like to read it every now and then as a reminder to myself of what is expected of me on the course.


Agreed

[Andy Troeger]

Andy

Could it be that you were relaxed and took the game as it came - using knowledge from within allowing you to actually concentrate on the shot rather than yardage. Whatever you believe your game did not suffer in anyway? Natural skill every time and it also allows you to enjoy your game.

Welcome to Golf

Melvyn,
Most of it is that I've gone to the driving range for 3 weeks and avoided the course and tried to remember how to hit the stupid little ball. It took a few rounds to kick in and gain consistency, but I did shoot 37 on the back nine the first time and the momentum carried on. I also made a few putts which always helps 

That said, I'm not one who thinks exact yardage is that crucial. Give me an idea within five yards and I'll be pretty close most of the time. I can eyeball it to a point, but I do think its beneficial for a course to have at least a couple reference points, whether it be 100/150/200 yard markers or something else. If I played the same course all the time I wouldn't need them, but I play all over so its nice to have something the first couple of times around.

It certainly was a fun experience. I can't say as it was all that different from normal play, except I had a few shots that had to be played creatively because of the gap between my 3W and 7I. The course I was playing also had a great deal to do with being able to have a chance to score because it allowed for a variety of shots. A purely aerial course would have been much more difficult given those constraints.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Where is the lower limit on the time you want us all to play before it becomes unfun.  2 hrs, 2.5 or 3?  In all reality with modern GPS systems and a little computing power it would not be difficult at all to rate each player for speed and create ideal tee times where everyone plays in the exact time they choose.  You just build a database on speed of play based off a chip in each players golf bag and place them in groups where the fastest players go off first and the slowest last each morning.   This way if no one ever waits or is pushed and all you give up is the right to play when you want with who you want.  Perfect.

[Jeff Fortson]

Patrick,

Where is the lower limit on the time you want us all to play before it becomes unfun.  2 hrs, 2.5 or 3?  In all reality with modern GPS systems and a little computing power it would not be difficult at all to rate each player for speed and create ideal tee times where everyone plays in the exact time they choose.  You just build a database on speed of play based off a chip in each players golf bag and place them in groups where the fastest players go off first and the slowest last each morning.   This way if no one ever waits or is pushed and all you give up is the right to play when you want with who you want.  Perfect.

I like this idea actually, in spirit.  I don't know how you make it work but I'm ok with people wanting to play slow as long as they are NEVER in front of me.


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where is the lower limit on the time you want us all to play before it becomes unfun.  2 hrs, 2.5 or 3? 

It depends upon the individual golf course.

I don't stop having fun because I've played in 2 hrs, 2.5 hrs or 3 hrs.

In all reality with modern GPS systems and a little computing power it would not be difficult at all to rate each player for speed and create ideal tee times where everyone plays in the exact time they choose. 

Golfers tend to play with people they enjoy.
THEY determine their playing companions.
Do you want to spend 2, 3 or 4 hours with people you don't know and don't enjoy ?

You just build a database on speed of play based off a chip in each players golf bag and place them in groups where the fastest players go off first and the slowest last each morning.   

How do you determine which member of the foursome is responsible for slow play and which member is the fast player ?

This way if no one ever waits or is pushed and all you give up is the right to play when you want with who you want.  Perfect.

Your flaw is the unreliability of pinpointing the pace of play for each member of the foursome and how you would accumulate your data base.

[John Kavanaugh]

It would be simple to put a chip in the bag tag of each member and trace their pace of play.  A player would then earn the right to early tee times based on his pace of play.  The flip side would be mandatory foresomes and overly fast players would have to play early or wait till afternoon.  There is no reason a group who walks, putts everything out and plays from the back tees, which sometimes require awkward walks. should be inconvenienced by letting casual golfers through ever 6 holes if they themselves play in 4:15.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It would be simple to put a chip in the bag tag of each member and trace their pace of play.  A player would then earn the right to early tee times based on his pace of play.  

Really ?

So if my average time to play is 2.5 hours, how would you determine that if I'm playing with three other golfers who play in 5 hours ?

A foursome can only play as fast as the slowest player.

The flip side would be mandatory foresomes and overly fast players would have to play early or wait till afternoon.  

Again, how can you determine who plays fast and who plays slow in a foursome of golfers who play at a different pace ?

There is no reason a group who walks, putts everything out and plays from the back tees, which sometimes require awkward walks. should be inconvenienced by letting casual golfers through ever 6 holes if they themselves play in 4:15.

If the "casual" golfers play in 3 hrs, why shouldn't they play through ?

[Brent Hutto]

All you guys seem to want to know yardage, yet how many of you are that accurate that you can hit that spot time after time - I keep asking that question and no one answers, so what is the point of knowing distance if you can’t hit it even if you know to the nearest inch. There are just so many variable to be considered, but if you need your little aid and its legal play it, but you will never see me playing with guys that that feel the need for distance information.

OK, I'll  use small words and I promise none of them will be swears.

No I can not hit the same spot time after time.

Even if I only hit three shots in a round that go the right distance I want them to end up near the hole.

I never asked for distance to the inch. Or even the yard. Three to five yards is close enough for me.

I can not guess a distance to within three to five yards very often. And neither can you.

If I hit a good shot but guessed the distance wrong by ten yards I think that was an mistake I didn't have to make. If you laugh it off as part of the game, then have fun. I don't mind a bit how you get your jollies.

If I am miserable on the golf course, it has nothing to do with yardages. It has to do with not striking the ball as well as I expect to and with my own execrable impatience with myself for not practicing more (sorry, a couple of big words in there...hope you get my drift).

And lastly, I don't know or care why you feel the need to assert your imagined superiority over all the poor saps who you suppose are failing to enjoy the game. Feel pity for whoever you like but consider keeping it to yourself once in a while. What a bunch of whining.

[JWinick]

Let me pose this question to the anti-range finder crowd:

If range finders are proven to speed up the pace of the play by an average of 20 minutes, would you drop your opposition to the device?  Let's assume the predicate is correct.   

If you are still opposed, then I think you forfeit the opportunity to bemoan slow pay.   Certainly, you can play fast without one and slow with one, but standing in the way of a device that improves pace of play is silly.   Doesn't mean you have to use one, but you shouldn't seek to ban these devices.

Pace of play speeds up with a range finder in several ways:

1) The quick distance to the pin speeds up club selection
2) Distance between the group ahead of you.   By gunning my range finder, I can see that I can't reach the group ahead of me, thus speeding up play.
3) Distance between hazards, OB, etc.   If players keep the ball in play because they now know with reasonable certainty, they will play faster.   

[PThomas]

Nobody has ever calculated distance that way on a golf course.  Ever, ever, ever!!

Nobody.  Not a soul. 

They guess the circumference of a circle, and then count from there.  Thus, no trig has ever, is ever or will ever get used on a golf course.

Have I said "ever" enough?   

EVER?  I'll do it on blind shots when I rifle one a fairway over.....but I'll add a disclaimer that I'm a math geek.  All you have to do is know the following Pythagorean Triples and you can get dangerously close within seconds.  

Warning for all single men:  The following will help you maintain your single status indefinitely if your knowledge is made public.

( 3, 4, 5)    ( 5, 12, 13)   ( 7, 24, 25)   ( 8, 15, 17)
( 9, 40, 41)   (11, 60, 61)   (12, 35, 37)   (13, 84, 85)
(16, 63, 65)   (20, 21, 29)   (28, 45, 53)   (33, 56, 65)
(36, 77, 85)   (39, 80, 89)   (48, 55, 73)   (65, 72, 97)

i heard one time Tiger said he was using the Pythagorean Theorem to calcaulate a yardage

[Tim Bert]

Nobody has ever calculated distance that way on a golf course.  Ever, ever, ever!!

Nobody.  Not a soul. 

They guess the circumference of a circle, and then count from there.  Thus, no trig has ever, is ever or will ever get used on a golf course.

Have I said "ever" enough?   

EVER?  I'll do it on blind shots when I rifle one a fairway over.....but I'll add a disclaimer that I'm a math geek.  All you have to do is know the following Pythagorean Triples and you can get dangerously close within seconds.  

Warning for all single men:  The following will help you maintain your single status indefinitely if your knowledge is made public.

( 3, 4, 5)    ( 5, 12, 13)   ( 7, 24, 25)   ( 8, 15, 17)
( 9, 40, 41)   (11, 60, 61)   (12, 35, 37)   (13, 84, 85)
(16, 63, 65)   (20, 21, 29)   (28, 45, 53)   (33, 56, 65)
(36, 77, 85)   (39, 80, 89)   (48, 55, 73)   (65, 72, 97)

Why would you waste your time and limit yourself to right triangles when you could simply memorize all the perfect squares from 1 to 250 and then interpolate to approximate your distance to the nearest yard?

Duh!

[John Kavanaugh]

It would be simple to put a chip in the bag tag of each member and trace their pace of play.  A player would then earn the right to early tee times based on his pace of play.  

Really ?

So if my average time to play is 2.5 hours, how would you determine that if I'm playing with three other golfers who play in 5 hours ?

A foursome can only play as fast as the slowest player.

The flip side would be mandatory foresomes and overly fast players would have to play early or wait till afternoon.  

Again, how can you determine who plays fast and who plays slow in a foursome of golfers who play at a different pace ?

There is no reason a group who walks, putts everything out and plays from the back tees, which sometimes require awkward walks. should be inconvenienced by letting casual golfers through ever 6 holes if they themselves play in 4:15.

If the "casual" golfers play in 3 hrs, why shouldn't they play through ?

Pat,

I can't believe you are the type of guy who will tolerate slow playing friends but not strangers.  If you want to be rated a fast player then you need to take responsibility for the people you play with and speed them up.  If you can't you have two choices, find faster friends or accept later tee times.

You ask "If the "casual" golfers play in 3 hrs, why shouldn't they play through?"  If they get up early enough they will not have to because they will have the first tee slots.  The system takes a bit of sacrifice in that people who desire to play fast have to get up early and people who choose to play at a slower pace have to incrementally play later.  I have always felt that in a private club setting individuals both fast and slow who believe their needs are greater than the whole are a burden to the club.  I am certain that in all your years of golf you have run into golfers who behave just as rude behind you as in front.  Any self-respecting golfer who believes that they have the right to tee off a 9am on a Saturday morning and go through 5 groups on their way to a three hour round is far more selfish than the guy who tees off at 8:30 and plays in 4 hours putting everything out and enjoying the social aspects of the game.  This system cures that by mandating the fastest golfers in the club go off first or play during less than prime times.

The bag tag, which sends signals much like a GPS, will determine when a foresome waits on the group in front which will eliminate your next question about how do you register fast times when you are being held up by the group in front.  I am sure a simple algorithm can be programed to determine real world speeds for future reference.  I would also require that each ball in the foresome be holed to prevent artificially fast times.

As the program becomes more sophisticated such stats such as time over shot, time reading putts and playing when ready can also be used to inform players of habits that impede the enjoyment of the club as a whole.

I know that a few pros and individuals use this system already when making tee times by using past experience.  Who doesn't ask who is already on a tee sheet when calling in and try to position their group so you don't have to either go or get played through.  Who doesn't try to make golfing buddies with similar pace of play styles and dump the outliers who refuse to conform...or find yourself dumped when you can't.

I could even see a pace of play rating similar to a handicap given to individuals that could travel from course to course which could translate to public venues and resorts.  Throw peer preasure in the mix and golfers are going to speed up out of vanity if nothing else.

[Tim Bert]

John K

How about a slight modification to your proposal.  What if the groups with the fastest average times over a certain rolling period (say three months, for instance) get the first choice of tee time for the following week.  This continues down the list to the slowest groups over that time period.

Letting them choose in order accomplishes a couple things:

The faster groups will tend to gravitate to the early times as your system recommends as they will understand that one slow group in their way can kill the day.

The faster groups are still rewarded with the flexibility to play later if it is convenient for them.  They must just understand that by dumping themselves later in the day they will likely play slower (and shouldn't expect to play through if the course is relatively crowded) and they need to understand that they likely hurt their average time, which could result in them moving further down the queue.

Essentially the same as your system except that it doesn't pigeon-hole the faster players into morning only times.  Those players just need to understand that if they don't want the morning times they must play by the later time rules, which will likely mean a slower day.

Slow players would still be prevented from slowing down the entire course for the day.

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
If range finders are proven to speed up the pace of the play by an average of 20 minutes, would you drop your opposition to the device?

Definitely.

I don't think I would use them, but I wouldn't have a problem with the USGA and R&A making them approved.

How about the opposite? If they are proven to slow down the pace of play, would you join us in opposing their approval?

Cheers,
Dan King

They ought to invoke the same-day rule.
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

[John Kavanaugh]

Essentially the same as your system except that it doesn't pigeon-hole the faster players into morning only times.  Those players just need to understand that if they don't want the morning times they must play by the later time rules, which will likely mean a slower day.

Slow players would still be prevented from slowing down the entire course for the day.

In my system all players are pigeon holed for the good of the whole.  I don't believe that outliers who choose to play abnormally fast have any more rights than those who play at an acceptable pace as determined by the majority of the membership.  There is no place in golf for people who run from green to tee just so they can harass those in front of them.  I do not have enough faith in human nature to believe that people who know they will be unhappy before they ever hit the first shot will not contaminate the entrie course with their poor attitude.  What type of adult can't make an 8 am tee time?  

[Tim Bert]

Essentially the same as your system except that it doesn't pigeon-hole the faster players into morning only times.  Those players just need to understand that if they don't want the morning times they must play by the later time rules, which will likely mean a slower day.

Slow players would still be prevented from slowing down the entire course for the day.

In my system all players are pigeon holed for the good of the whole.  I don't believe that outliers who choose to play abnormally fast have any more rights than those who play at an acceptable pace as determined by the majority of the membership.  There is no place in golf for people who run from green to tee just so they can harass those in front of them.  I do not have enough faith in human nature to believe that people who know they will be unhappy before they ever hit the first shot will not contaminate the entrie course with their poor attitude.  What type of adult can't make an 8 am tee time?  

I'm pretty comfortable playing at a slow or fast pace when the situation dictates, so I think I could be plugged into a group at almost any time of your system without causing a problem for others. 

I generally prefer to play in the early morning at my home course because it is a little quicker than average (without being too fast.)  At the same time, if I show up in the mid-afternoon I expect play to be slower and I don't bitch and moan about it or try to run my group up on other groups.  I just try to enjoy the day and the company. 

When I travel to play golf, a slower round doesn't bother me at all.  I still play my shots in about the same time as I would otherwise, but I use the extra time (if we're behind a group) to enjoy the surroundings and take in the experience.  Conversely, if I'm traveling and the pace is quicker or if I'm playing at a private club that sets forth pace of play expectations, I keep up. 

I'm usually just happy to be out there playing golf.  Perhaps I'm in the minority.

You probably think I'm full of crap.  We'll just leave it as your lack of faith in human nature.  I can't change that.

[JWinick]

Certainly, if the existence of range finders proved to slow up play, I would change my view for the good of the game, unless I was playing a course without yardage markers.   I'm glad to see you would drop your opposition if they proved to speed up play.

JWinick writes:
If range finders are proven to speed up the pace of the play by an average of 20 minutes, would you drop your opposition to the device?

Definitely.

I don't think I would use them, but I wouldn't have a problem with the USGA and R&A making them approved.

How about the opposite? If they are proven to slow down the pace of play, would you join us in opposing their approval?

Cheers,
Dan King

They ought to invoke the same-day rule.
 --Paul Azinger (on the slow play of the Langer/Faldo team at the 1995 Ryder Cup)

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
Certainly, if the existence of range finders proved to slow up play, I would change my view for the good of the game, unless I was playing a course without yardage markers.   I'm glad to see you would drop your opposition if they proved to speed up play.

Wouldn't it have been sweet if some organization -- such as the USGA -- had done some of the testing of distance measuring devices effect on pace of play prior to passing approval on them.

Cheers,
Dan King

Measuring distance with a laser rangefinder device is no different than pacing off yardage from a sprinkler head or consulting a yardage book, and provides greater accuracy with less time. Now that distance measuring devices will be allowed, we expect a significant change in pace of play.
 --Joe Messner, Bushnell president/CEO

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am finding it hard to understand the mentality of those who seem to advocate the use of yardage aids in all their forms and that they speed up play.

Voice an opinion that you do not feel the need because you sincerely believe that each golfer has it within him to play without these outside crutches, and out comes the verbal abuse in the form of “imagined superiority”; “moral superiority”; “dinosaur attitude” ; ban scorecards etc, etc.

I for one do not need yardage markers to play my golf. I am not alone in this. I don’t believe that this knowledge is part of the game, certainly not the one I play. The only information should come from your game, not via an outside source, i.e. Caddie, markers, yardage books or electronic aid. To my mind that is unacceptable. I equate it to an athlete needing outside substances to enhance his game. However in Golf, the Governing Bodies, in their wisdom, have allowed the use of such outside aids.

I take no Moral High Ground. They are legal so golfers are entitled to use them. Yes, I certainly do not agree with USGA & R&A regards distance aids
of any kind. IMHO they have got it wrong, and the game has become infected with all form of distance aids.

As to the argument that it speeds up play, let’s put this into perspective. No, it does not speed up the game it, in fact, it slows it down – When, when compared to the game I and guys like me play. To those who can’t or don’t want to remember how golf was once played, let me remind you (that also includes any one sitting on any of our Governing Bodies). We walk to our ball, I for one enjoy looking and examining the course as I walk (hopefully my ball is on the fairway). During this walk I have the opportunity to observe the course, its condition, the quality of the ground underfoot, gauge the wind and the overall weather – as I have matured I have noticed some of the architectural details beyond the standard hazards, so by the time I approach my ball I know which club to use and hopefully my skill & swing will give me the shot I seek.

No stopping to jump on or off a cart, no indecision as to which club to use until I have used the Range Finder – or paced out from a marker or having examined in detail my yardage book – then, perhaps, walk back to my bag to select another club. Some time later, the Golfer approaches his ball to again go through his same pre shot check list (as with every shot) including mentally re calculating distance, by the time he has taken his shot he would have spent more time at the ball than I would have

I will accept that Range Finders may result in a quicker round against any other form of yardage collator, but I cannot see how it can be faster than the golfer using the traditional method. Have the R&A, USGA or the electronic distance manufacturers made any comparisons using the traditional method or just against other forms of yardage?

You may not like the way many play the game; your priority maybe money and winning at any cost. Well, that’s down to you, as long as it’s legal, but with the Governing Bodies moving away from the original Spirit and Soul of Golf it looks like everything will become legal in time. As I get older I understand that money is the name of the game. But to some of us we feel that we cannot accept this modern attitude of, “I don’t Care” - because I for one do care.

If I have to carry the label of ’Morally Superior’ or ‘Dinosaur’ to remind you exactly what Golf ‘IS ‘ -  then so be it.         

[Jeff Fortson]

I am finding it hard to understand the mentality of those who seem to advocate the use of yardage aids in all their forms and that they speed up play.

Voice an opinion that you do not feel the need because you sincerely believe that each golfer has it within him to play without these outside crutches, and out comes the verbal abuse in the form of “imagined superiority”; “moral superiority”; “dinosaur attitude” ; ban scorecards etc, etc.

I for one do not need yardage markers to play my golf. I am not alone in this. I don’t believe that this knowledge is part of the game, certainly not the one I play. The only information should come from your game, not via an outside source, i.e. Caddie, markers, yardage books or electronic aid. To my mind that is unacceptable. I equate it to an athlete needing outside substances to enhance his game. However in Golf, the Governing Bodies, in their wisdom, have allowed the use of such outside aids.

I take no Moral High Ground. They are legal so golfers are entitled to use them. Yes, I certainly do not agree with USGA & R&A regards distance aids
of any kind. IMHO they have got it wrong, and the game has become infected with all form of distance aids.

As to the argument that it speeds up play, let’s put this into perspective. No, it does not speed up the game it, in fact, it slows it down – When, when compared to the game I and guys like me play. To those who can’t or don’t want to remember how golf was once played, let me remind you (that also includes any one sitting on any of our Governing Bodies). We walk to our ball, I for one enjoy looking and examining the course as I walk (hopefully my ball is on the fairway). During this walk I have the opportunity to observe the course, its condition, the quality of the ground underfoot, gauge the wind and the overall weather – as I have matured I have noticed some of the architectural details beyond the standard hazards, so by the time I approach my ball I know which club to use and hopefully my skill & swing will give me the shot I seek.

No stopping to jump on or off a cart, no indecision as to which club to use until I have used the Range Finder – or paced out from a marker or having examined in detail my yardage book – then, perhaps, walk back to my bag to select another club. Some time later, the Golfer approaches his ball to again go through his same pre shot check list (as with every shot) including mentally re calculating distance, by the time he has taken his shot he would have spent more time at the ball than I would have

I will accept that Range Finders may result in a quicker round against any other form of yardage collator, but I cannot see how it can be faster than the golfer using the traditional method. Have the R&A, USGA or the electronic distance manufacturers made any comparisons using the traditional method or just against other forms of yardage?

You may not like the way many play the game; your priority maybe money and winning at any cost. Well, that’s down to you, as long as it’s legal, but with the Governing Bodies moving away from the original Spirit and Soul of Golf it looks like everything will become legal in time. As I get older I understand that money is the name of the game. But to some of us we feel that we cannot accept this modern attitude of, “I don’t Care” - because I for one do care.

If I have to carry the label of ’Morally Superior’ or ‘Dinosaur’ to remind you exactly what Golf ‘IS ‘ -  then so be it.         

Wow...

So every professional golfer is "on roids" or "outside substances" as you call it because they use a yardage book?  That's off the charts in terms of being "hardcore".  I commend you for your belief and fire on this issue, but I unfortunately disagree with you. 

I have never read one bit on the history of the Rules of Golf where a ruling body ever claimed that doing research (i.e. measuring distances from one spot to another) was not allowed.  To my knowledge, there has never been a been a time where a governing body has said, ok we'll let you measure from 'point a' to 'point b' now because we want to make the game easier.  I do agree that allowing the use of range finders is a step out of the norm because it requires NO research.  There is no skill in aiming a device and shooting a target.  There is skill in plotting a strategy for attacking a course for players with a skill set to execute very skilled and specific shots. 

While I'm sure some sheepherder in the 18th Century didn't have a yardage book or know specific distances from certain points, that does not mean that there was ever a tradition that researching and using that information was against the spirit of the game.  While Old Tom Morris may not have used a yardage book, I'm sure he or skilled players of his day knew some fairly accurate measurements from tees to bunkers, or bunkers to green fronts.  Great players go the extra mile for an edge.  This edge has always been legal if you put the time in prior to an event or playing.

Arguing against range finders is, IMO, something I find debatable.  Discussing banning all yardage or measurement tools (i.e. yardage books, sprinkler head yardages, hole location charts, 150 markers, etc.) is like discussing whether or not knowing how far you need to get a first down in American Football is necessary. 

I want to tee it up with you pards.  I love people as hardcore as your comment shows you to be!   


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff:

Very well said, all of it.

I just have to ask for clarification re one part.

"There is no skill in aiming a device and shooting a target.  There is skill in plotting a strategy for attacking a course for players with a skill set to execute very skilled and specific shots."

Can we change that to "there is very little skill involved in aiming..."

Because I'd disagree there is NO skill involved - oh it's not rocket science for sure, but it does take at least some dexterity and precision to get the reading one wants - at least enough such that all doubt is certainly not removed when using the devices.

There is obviously way way way more skill involved in "plotting a strategy..." etc.  And I believe that is your point.

But some seem to want to hang their hats here on the fact that electronic devices remove all doubt re distances.  I really don't think they do.  Not ALL doubt, anyway.  And any doubt at all can mess up one's shot.... which is the key point.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Let me pose this question to the anti-range finder crowd:

If range finders are proven to speed up the pace of the play by an average of 20 minutes, would you drop your opposition to the device?  Let's assume the predicate is correct.   

I still wouldn't.  I'd speed up the game by that 20 minutes, and raise you another 20 by banning the practice swing (thus, eviscerating Plblic Enemy Number One of fast play:  the pre-shot routine) and the cheater line instead. 

Actually, make it an hour.

I'd get fast play AND no electronics in golf. 

There's no crying in baseball.......... 

Ban the practice swing?  Really.... hmmmm.... legislating how one plays the game....

Your consistency rating just took a very hard hit.  Grade back down to C.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

for the good of the game....so you can get around Santa Teresa in 4 hours and still get your honey-do list done by noon. 

A+

Asking for the impossible does not raise one's grade.. not much anyway.  But effort is always noticed.

C+

TH

ps - it would take WAY WAY WAY more than banning of electronic distance aids and practice swings to get one around Santa Teresa in 4 hours on a weekend.  What we need to do is ban half the people on the course from playing.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()