[Patrick_Mucci]

At my club, we have chicken croquettes and sometimes lamb as well.  

You can get them at the snack shack and they are great improvement over the traditional hot dog.

Washed down with Geary's ale or perhaps Sauvignon Blanc, they really hit the spot. Croquettes should definitely be permitted in golf.


Michael,

Any club that serves Sauvignon Blanc at the snack shack is too fancy for me.

[/quote]

[JWinick]

Pat:

I'm glad we found something we agree on.   I look forward to future agreements!   The long putter is embarassing and should be banned.  

I don't disagree with you that more financially successful golfers have an advantage.   Affording a rangefinder is just one of many potential advantages that the haves will have over the have-nots.   The chance to play private clubs with lighting fast greens, the game improvement equipment, swing coach etc.   I don't think you can create equality on the golf course.   I think you can make things as fair as reasonably possible.   For example, we've put an end to the arms race for drivers by controlling the distance on them.  

I'm not anti-Ken Bakst.  I just felt you jumped all over me when I pointed out he was over-zealous.  You assumed that the players deserved it.  They didn't.  But, Friar's Head is a wonderful golf course and he is a credit to the game.   If I owned the course, I would probably lean towards overprotective.  

JWinick,

Unlike Shivas, I'm anti long putter.

I don't think that croquette should be permitted in golf.

You never answered my question regarding the advantage that more financially successful golfers have over less financially successful golfers, with respect to being able to afford range finders, versus not being able to afford and employ them.

Is that in the spirit of golf ?

I give Ken Bakst a lot of credit.
He's making an effort to change/restore the culture of golf.

[JWinick]

Shivas:

You seem pretty intolerant to people who actually want to know how far they are from the pin.  What a crime!  How dare these people!   For all of my pro-range finder position, there is no one who has posted that I wouldn't enjoy playing with.  Shoot, if it really bothered them, I suppose I could live without my range finder.   

As for the rules, virtually every club I know of permits range finders as a local rule.   They are even legal in CDGA tournaments (Chicago District Golf Association).  You make it seem like a range finder is controversial.  It really isn't.  I haven't played a golf course yet this year that doesn't allow them. 

And, yes, the Bushnell doesn't beep.   

Mike Golden:

I"ll take it one step further.  I don't want them in my group unless they're specifically legal.  I want to play GOLF with people, not video games.  If somebody wants to use one in my group, I want to see a copy of the local rule permitting them first.  Otherwise, the Rules of Golf do not permit them  -- at least if we're playing GOLF.

These damn things are becoming so prevalent, they're becoming impossible to avoid.

Another reason to hate them - NOISE POLLUTION.   I'm sick to damn death already of rudely being forced to listen to that stupid little "beep" a gazillion times a round.  I am certain that most of the people I play with would start to get pissed at me if I set my cell phone alarm to go off every 10 or 15  minutes for 4 hours.  In fact, I might just start doing that when playing with beep-whores:  setting my cell phone to beep every 15 minutes.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

JWinick,

I think most people take better care of their homes than they do the hotel rooms/condos they stay in.  It's human nature.

I can guarantee you that we'd be just as protective of our course as Ken is of his course.  It's human nature.

My guess is that most owners/developers are protective of their "babies"

I'm curious, why do you think that driver length has been frozen ?

Don't you think that shaft developments will add additional yardage in the future ?

[JWinick]

Mike,

Chill out.... No one is forcing you to use a range finder.   But, if I'm your coach, and you lost a match because you lacked a range finder, I'd be giving you bad advice if I didn't advise you to purchase one.   If you don't care, that's fine as well.  

When I started this post, I obviously did a pretty good job provoking honest debate.   I never suggested you don't like technology, but your background suggests to me that you see the benefits of technology.   If you're not going to be much happier with a birdie on that hole than the cost of going techno, then that is your choice.  

I think I'm like most people.  I enjoy golf better when I play well.  And, I'm also trying to improve.   If a legal tool helps me accomplish that, than I will take advantage of it.  

For the record, have you ever tried one?  

AG, aren't you missing the point I've tried to make?  I don't care if others use Range Finders, I just don't want to be criticized for not wanting to use them.  For me, the difference between a laser marked 150 marker and a Range Finder is that the 150 marker gives you approximate yardage because you don't know exactly how far the pin is.  With the Range Finder, you know it exactly.  The difference can be 8-10 yards very easily, enough to make a gimmee birdie putt a 30 footer.  Here's a perfect example from my 9 holes today-third hole, par 5, I was about 65 yards from the center of the green with the pin somewhat back and left.  I played a 70 yard shot, hit it perfectly and flew it 15 feet past the pin.  With a Range Finder I would have gotten it much closer and probably made birdie.  It's not that Range Finders are going to turn a 15 into a 5 but it will shave a couple of strokes off your handicap, that much I am sure of.  Again, I don't care about that but the first post of this thread called those of us who did not want to use them 'Luddites' (a term for a group of people who hate technological advances) which is the furthest thing from the truth.  Two of us, Dan King and myself, are long time participants in Silicon Valley (Dan with NASA and Google, me with a number of microelectronics companies as well as the Chair of an important industry committe regarding the standardization of measurement techniques for microelectronics manufacturing processes).  We get the technology and embrace its use, it's just that we don't want to employ it for a recreational game with hundreds of years of tradition.  As for club and ball technology, there is a simple solution, just reduce the length of golf courses back to 6000 yards and less and roll everything back but that isn't practical.  I enjoy hitting a golf ball as far today as I did when I was 30 and that would be impossible without the technological breakthroughs in equipment (although I am currently using a Titleist 975D driver, which, as I was reminded yesterday, is about 5 generations removed from current).  The funny thing is that I can hit a ball just as far with that driver as a newer one, it's just the slighly offcenter hits that pay the distance penalty.  Your approach to the use of a Range Finder seems fine to me, I just would not be interested in playing a match against you for a $20 Nassau if you were going to use it-for a $5 Nassau it wouldn't matter.
[/quote]

[JWinick]

Patrick:

By limiting the trampoline effect, the USGA has stopped the distance explosion.  If you look at PGA Tour driving averages, they have flattened out.   Certainly shaft technology could be an issue and I'm not qualified to pontificate on how driving distance could improve with better shafts.  But, it appears the USGA has drawn a line in the sand.  Hopefully, the ball is next.   

JWinick,

I think most people take better care of their homes than they do the hotel rooms/condos they stay in.  It's human nature.

I can guarantee you that we'd be just as protective of our course as Ken is of his course.  It's human nature.

My guess is that most owners/developers are protective of their "babies"

I'm curious, why do you think that driver length has been frozen ?

Don't you think that shaft developments will add additional yardage in the future ?

[Pat Burke]

JWinick,

Unlike Shivas, I'm anti long putter.

I don't think that croquette should be permitted in golf.

You never answered my question regarding the advantage that more financially successful golfers have over less financially successful golfers, with respect to being able to afford range finders, versus not being able to afford and employ them.

Is that in the spirit of golf ?

I give Ken Bakst a lot of credit.
He's making an effort to change/restore the culture of golf.

Wouldn't being able to afford a better club with a better practice facility, and lessons with a high profile instructor also be an advantage for the wealthy?

[C. Squier]

Wouldn't being able to afford a better club with a better practice facility, and lessons with a high profile instructor also be an advantage for the wealthy?

But rangefinders are at least 2x the cost of a caddy!  But last time I checked, kidnapping a looper is against the "spirit of the game" as well.....so the dollar cost averaging of a rangefinder works out in the end. 

Shivas, I hear you with the rules thing.  I was very anti-RF until they instituted the local rule as well.  I'd consider the fact that many courses now have the reflectors built into the pins to be evidence of the local rule being intact.  The best signage on a golf course is the one that says "leave cell phones in the car".  As for the broomstick putter, I don't like them, but don't mind golfers who use them.....it is irritating when they're used for drops though.  Talk about "spirit of the game"....

As for the argument that golf doesn't need to be "fair", I'll say this:  The game is based on fairness.  The thing that makes golf so enjoyable is that I (a 2 hdcp) can have a match with a 20.  It may be the fairest game of them all....mirror, mirror, on the wall.  It makes no sense to get so uptight about who has a rangefinder or new driver when the years of hard work and practice of a scratch golfer gets nullified by his playing partner's higher handicap. 

Melvyn, I'm going to play a few rounds sans yardages for fun.  If you're right and it is more fun, I'd be a fool to miss out   

[Sean_A]

I don't know how the long putter can be lopped into the same category as the yardage gun.  Apples and oranges. 

Pat, an argument against something based on financial means is insane.  Guys with more money and the willingness to spend the money ALWAYS have the opportunity of advantage.  Thats life. 

Everybody knows that I am vehemently against yardage guns and if it were up to me they would be the first thing I would ban.  However, like Mike G, if folks want to use these dopey gadgets that is up to them.  However, I think his and my stance is an important one in that just because something is legal it doesn't make it right.  It is extremely important to vote with your feet.  As Pat suggests, there is a question of trying to recapture what I would call a proper golf culture and that starts with guys making sacrifices in using less than is allowed if one disagrees with the rule.  It may sound harsh, but I think things like carts and yardage guns erode golf culture, which should be in part getting away from everyday nonsense - hence the reason phones are not allowed.  Its all tied up into the same concept as far as I am concerned. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

Well said – I totally agree with you and Mike G.

The modern game of golf has become a free for all, anything goes, but the Spirit of the Game and that of the Golfer is being compromises. We, I hope all know the difference between right and wrong, yet our Lords & Masters sit in their Ivory Towers laying down the law (or should I say appearing to rubber stamp the equipment manufactures proposals).

Why we have poor and weak leadership is beyond me because as I have said before there are many talented guys there who know the game. But I expect it’s the old problem, money first and foremost, sod the Spirit and Heart of the Game. Money, Money, Money like the old ABBA song

Well that’s my honest opinion.

[Dan Herrmann]

Melvyn,
What about yardage markers?
There's an old thread from 2002 here about banning those too.

And - are you saying the USGA was 'bribed' to allow GPS devices? 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dan

What about yardage markers?
There's an old thread from 2002 here about banning those too.
And - are you saying the USGA was 'bribed' to allow GPS devices?

IMHO I am not keen on any markers, I don’t believe they are actually needed.

As for “BRIBED”  - I have made no such comment or accusation.
 

[Mike Golden]

Mike,

Chill out.... No one is forcing you to use a range finder.   But, if I'm your coach, and you lost a match because you lacked a range finder, I'd be giving you bad advice if I didn't advise you to purchase one.   If you don't care, that's fine as well.  

When I started this post, I obviously did a pretty good job provoking honest debate.   I never suggested you don't like technology, but your background suggests to me that you see the benefits of technology.   If you're not going to be much happier with a birdie on that hole than the cost of going techno, then that is your choice.  

I think I'm like most people.  I enjoy golf better when I play well.  And, I'm also trying to improve.   If a legal tool helps me accomplish that, than I will take advantage of it.  

For the record, have you ever tried one?  

AG, aren't you missing the point I've tried to make?  I don't care if others use Range Finders, I just don't want to be criticized for not wanting to use them.  For me, the difference between a laser marked 150 marker and a Range Finder is that the 150 marker gives you approximate yardage because you don't know exactly how far the pin is.  With the Range Finder, you know it exactly.  The difference can be 8-10 yards very easily, enough to make a gimmee birdie putt a 30 footer.  Here's a perfect example from my 9 holes today-third hole, par 5, I was about 65 yards from the center of the green with the pin somewhat back and left.  I played a 70 yard shot, hit it perfectly and flew it 15 feet past the pin.  With a Range Finder I would have gotten it much closer and probably made birdie.  It's not that Range Finders are going to turn a 15 into a 5 but it will shave a couple of strokes off your handicap, that much I am sure of.  Again, I don't care about that but the first post of this thread called those of us who did not want to use them 'Luddites' (a term for a group of people who hate technological advances) which is the furthest thing from the truth.  Two of us, Dan King and myself, are long time participants in Silicon Valley (Dan with NASA and Google, me with a number of microelectronics companies as well as the Chair of an important industry committe regarding the standardization of measurement techniques for microelectronics manufacturing processes).  We get the technology and embrace its use, it's just that we don't want to employ it for a recreational game with hundreds of years of tradition.  As for club and ball technology, there is a simple solution, just reduce the length of golf courses back to 6000 yards and less and roll everything back but that isn't practical.  I enjoy hitting a golf ball as far today as I did when I was 30 and that would be impossible without the technological breakthroughs in equipment (although I am currently using a Titleist 975D driver, which, as I was reminded yesterday, is about 5 generations removed from current).  The funny thing is that I can hit a ball just as far with that driver as a newer one, it's just the slighly offcenter hits that pay the distance penalty.  Your approach to the use of a Range Finder seems fine to me, I just would not be interested in playing a match against you for a $20 Nassau if you were going to use it-for a $5 Nassau it wouldn't matter.

[/quote]

JWinick, you just miss the entire point but I will repeat myself one more time in the context of your latest comments:
1.  Golf is an individual game for me, not a team sport.  As such I have no coach and never will.  The pros I have taken lessons from are instructors, not coaches.
2.  If I were on an interclub team at my club and was told by the captain to use the Range Finder to have a better chance of winning I would suggest that he find another player, that my handicap is based on my ability using my equipment and I wasn't going to make changes to artificially improve my skills.
2.  I have never tried one and, when another person in my group offers the distance from his, I almost cringe because it makes me uncomfortable since it is different that my perception.  And I want to use my perception rather than rely on a device I choose not to employ.

Why do you think I am upset and need to chill out?  You are the one who keeps repeating yourself and finding fault with anyone who doesn't see the need for a Range Finder, I am simply restating my opinion as you continue to belabor yours.

[Andy Troeger]

Inspired by this thread (and being a yardage marker guy) I played 9 holes at a top level course yesterday with 4 clubs (3W, 7I, SW, Putter) and no yardage markers other than knowing the length of the holes from the tee.

I shot my best 9 hole score of the year...36. I shot 78 with all my clubs and a caddie using a rangefinder in the morning on the same course. Admittedly too...I've hacked all year and just recently started practicing which is why my game is showing some improvement, however, count that as a point for the traditionalists (even if I'm not sure I consider myself a member!).

[Bill_McBride]

I've changed my mind.

I'm pro-rangefinder.

I believe that every golfer should have a rangefinder - a device that enables them to find the range, practice a solid swing, and get better LEGITIMATELY.

If everyone did that, they might realize that neither they nor the game benefit from artificial electronic improvement devices on the golf course.

Shivas, I think you're right.  The problem with a lot of 11-page GCA threads is the right to one's opinion leads to either/or battles.  I used a laser yesterday while riding in the heat at Pensacola CC (each cart is equipped with one, the pins have reflectors).   Walkers are not provided lasers, so I rarely see one.  I used it a couple of times while parked near a marked sprinkler head, so the information was pretty redundant.  Never did the accurate distance make any difference to the club I pulled or shot I hit. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Andy

Could it be that you were relaxed and took the game as it came - using knowledge from within allowing you to actually concentrate on the shot rather than yardage. Whatever you believe your game did not suffer in anyway? Natural skill every time and it also allows you to enjoy your game.

Welcome to Golf

[Tim Bert]

There's one important question that hasn't been answered adequately in my mind, and I'd like to get some responses. Both sides seem to be indicating there is some advantage to knowing the exact yardage.

Could someone please explain to me how a mid or high handicapper benefits from this information?  I have never met a 5 or higher handicapper Tin truth the number is probably lower than 5) that can hit irons to an exact distances. The full swing is not easily modified for increments of single yards for anyone but the most practiced players.  If you can hit to the exact yardage and you aren't a very low handicapper you've got bigger issues than not knowing your distance. One can quickly and easily assess yardage within 5 yards on most courses which ought to be enough. A 2 yard gap in knowledge is not an issue for 99.5 percent of players.

So for the "pro" group let me know how many of you are so refined in your swing that you actually make an adjustment to hit the ball 156 instead of 153.

For the "con" group why not let these guys have their toys. Who really cares?  If the peace of mind factor is that important to the player that needs the rangefinder to feel better about trusting the shot they will face mental weaknesses in other areas of their game. 

[Mike Golden]

My rangefinder 2.0 device would improve the game and speed up play way the hell more than today's rangefinder does -- and it would be legal under the Rules of Golf, not illegal in the absence of a local rule, like lift, clean and cheat, winter rules and rake-and-roll.

Shivas,

I am filing my patent application today for Range Finder 4.0, which not only shows the exact distance to the hole but factors in wind velocity and direction, change in altitude between the ball and the final target, and, in future generations, be able to calibrate your swing and distance with each club to give you not just a distance but the actual club to hit as well as a laser market target line for aiming accuracy.  And for those who really like this, Range Finder 5.0 will be a putting range finder where you put the device on the green behind your ball and a laser line is generated with the exact line to the hole along with a spot market on the green to hit so that different green speeds are accomodated.

All of this technology is readily available, I wonder how far in the future it will be when there will be a thread entitled, 'Why the beef about the Total Range, Distance, Club, and Putting Line finders?'  At which time I will find another sport to enjoy.

[Bill_McBride]

There's one important question that hasn't been answered adequately in my mind, and I'd like to get some responses. Both sides seem to be indicating there is some advantage to knowing the exact yardage.

Could someone please explain to me how a mid or high handicapper benefits from this information?  I have never met a 5 or higher handicapper Tin truth the number is probably lower than 5) that can hit irons to an exact distances. The full swing is not easily modified for increments of single yards for anyone but the most practiced players.  If you can hit to the exact yardage and you aren't a very low handicapper you've got bigger issues than not knowing your distance. One can quickly and easily assess yardage within 5 yards on most courses which ought to be enough. A 2 yard gap in knowledge is not an issue for 99.5 percent of players.

So for the "pro" group let me know how many of you are so refined in your swing that you actually make an adjustment to hit the ball 156 instead of 153.

For the "con" group why not let these guys have their toys. Who really cares?  If the peace of mind factor is that important to the player that needs the rangefinder to feel better about trusting the shot they will face mental weaknesses in other areas of their game. 

Tim, i beg to disagree, I think the anti-range finder crowd does not think precise distance is important.   Envisioning the shot, feel and understanding the underlying architecture of a shot is much more important than precise distance.  How many times have you either underclubbed or overclubbed deliberately because of the specific requirements of a shot.  Knowing the precise distance leads you to pull the club that you think you will most likely hit that distance.  It can be a pretty dumb way to play.


Reviewing all the posts in this thread (over 300 now) would take too long, but I don't remember reading anyone who is anti-range finder saying precise distance is very critical.

[Brent Hutto]

Tim,

Do you know how far your pitching wedge goes with a stock swing? How about your 9-iron? At some point you have to pick one of them for a shot and most people would prefer to pick the one that will land somewhere around the spot they're aiming instead of 15 yards short or long, wouldn't they?

My pitching wedge goes 102 yards...give or take a bunch because I don't often make perfect contact. My 9-iron goes 114 yards...give or take a bunch because I don't often make perfect contact. So if I'm 113 yards from the flag on the fourth hole of my home course and I have 100 yards to carry the pond in front of the green I wouldn't hit that pitching wedge if you paid me fifty bucks, it may not make it to dry ground and it certainly won't make it anywhere near the hole.

So with all due respect I must ask why the [inappropriate expletive removed] would any rational person not want to know that it's 113 yards to the flag? Instead of 103 or 123 or 150 or 85 or some other number.

Do I need to know for sure whether it's 113 instead of 111 or 114? Of course not. If my yardage information were off by three yards I'd never even know because that's less than my detectable accuracy. But I sure want to know how far it is over that water and I sure don't want to hit too much club and go in the rough over the green (in which case my chip shot will likely run off the green and down into the water).

This line of reasoning just slays me. If you're a 20-handicapper then you hit a lot of bad shots that don't go within 30 yards of where you're aiming...so you shouldn't aim. Well geez, Sergio chunked a simple chip shot on national television yesterday. Do you think he quit aiming at the hole for the rest of the day?

I know what happens when I lay sod over the ball or blade it into the next zip code with a short iron. I end up making double or triple bogey. But even on a day I don't break 90 I always, always, invariably hit at least a couple of shots (usually more like a handful) that go pretty much exactly the distance I intended them to go. Maybe a yard long or two yards short or maybe pulled by 20 feet but it is not rare for my to step up and hit an supposedly "92 yard" gap wedge shot that goes 92 yards and leaves me a 10-foot putt. Why on earth would I want to hit that shot and end up 35 feet from the hole because I guessed wrong by a few yards on the distance.

I've read Dave Pelz say this and I've heard sports psychologists, teaching pros and good players make the same observation. What matters most is how often you can get a wedge or short iron within 15 feet of the hole. The difference in coming up ten feet vs. ten yards short of the green with a 5-iron does not affect your score if you have any kind of short game at all. It's a long chip anyway. But hitting a pitching wedge six feet from the instead of six yards is the difference in a putt you can make as often as not vs. an almost certain two-putt. That's huge.

[Brent Hutto]

Mike,

Given that it has been allowable under the Rules to pace off distance from sprinkler heads since, well forever. And given that is has been against the Rules to use any device to measure wind speed and slope since, well forever.

Then I think you'll grow old waiting on anyone to buy your new invention.

Some of you guys spend so much time obsessing about the (mythical) glorious golden age of golf that you lose track of what you're arguing about. Pointing a laser at a hole accomplishes exactly, precisely and identically the same end as Padraig Harrington's caddie pulling out his yardage book and say "One Eight Two Hole".

[JWinick]

Tim:

Iron play is about precision.  Certainly three yards wouldn't ordinarily matter, but 156 versus 153 might.  Suppose I was in between clubs (and I hit my 9 Iron about 150, 8 Iron 160) it would make a difference in club selection.  Do I hit a strong 9 or a weak 8? 

There isn't an exact distance in which one typically hits their irons.  But, there is a range.   And very few golfers would argue that club selection is an important decision.   

Where do you stand on the pace of play argument?  I haven't heard you there.   To me, that's the best reason for these devices.   I know when I don't have mine, it take me longer to play.

There's one important question that hasn't been answered adequately in my mind, and I'd like to get some responses. Both sides seem to be indicating there is some advantage to knowing the exact yardage.

Could someone please explain to me how a mid or high handicapper benefits from this information?  I have never met a 5 or higher handicapper Tin truth the number is probably lower than 5) that can hit irons to an exact distances. The full swing is not easily modified for increments of single yards for anyone but the most practiced players.  If you can hit to the exact yardage and you aren't a very low handicapper you've got bigger issues than not knowing your distance. One can quickly and easily assess yardage within 5 yards on most courses which ought to be enough. A 2 yard gap in knowledge is not an issue for 99.5 percent of players.

So for the "pro" group let me know how many of you are so refined in your swing that you actually make an adjustment to hit the ball 156 instead of 153.

For the "con" group why not let these guys have their toys. Who really cares?  If the peace of mind factor is that important to the player that needs the rangefinder to feel better about trusting the shot they will face mental weaknesses in other areas of their game. 

[Bill_McBride]

So with all due respect I must ask why the fuck would any rational person not want to know that it's 113 yards to the flag? Instead of 103 or 123 or 150 or 85 or some other number.

This is an example of a condition known as "Rangefinder thread rage."   

Just kidding, Brent.  This kind of 50/50 (diametrically opposed) thread can lead to frustration selling your point to the other side.

[JWinick]

Andy:

Here's the difference.  You actually tried playing this way and enjoyed it.   I would do the same.   It would be fun to see how I'd play without modern tools.   I'd join you, or Melvyn, or Shivas in a fun foursome.   

But, they wouldn't have us if we had a range finder.  Nor would they play a round with one.   To my knowledge, they have never used one (Meylvn, Shivas, Mike in particular) and have no basis of comparison.   

We're inclusive, they are exclusive.  That's the difference.   

Inspired by this thread (and being a yardage marker guy) I played 9 holes at a top level course yesterday with 4 clubs (3W, 7I, SW, Putter) and no yardage markers other than knowing the length of the holes from the tee.

I shot my best 9 hole score of the year...36. I shot 78 with all my clubs and a caddie using a rangefinder in the morning on the same course. Admittedly too...I've hacked all year and just recently started practicing which is why my game is showing some improvement, however, count that as a point for the traditionalists (even if I'm not sure I consider myself a member!).

[Bruce Leland]

"I think that we got the ideal setup this week. We got two days of really tough golf, hard and fast golf course. That's kind of what golf is meant to be like. It's meant to be bouncy, and good and bad breaks, judging distances; that's what traditional golf is like." 

Seems like an on topic quote from our 2008 PGA and Open Championship Champion.  Thought Melvyn might like this one.

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