[Gerry Stratford]

Somewhere along the way the game has moved from one of "feel" to one of science. As we argue about the value of information I am inclined to wonder about a funny thing that happens in the game of basketball. A player that is able to make a high percentage of turn around jump shots from all over the court with no other information about the exact distance to the basket than a fleeting glance and subconscious calculation based upon the visual shape of the hoop and its apparent size, will still miss a disturbing number of "free throws" when he knows the precise distance and has practiced it endlessly.
Perhaps what brings us back to Scotland year after year is that from a given spot on the fairway there are probably four or five different clubs with varying swings that can produce a rolling bouncing route to the green, and on a day with wind the shots are all different again.
One would have to believe that the shepherd who suggested that he could knock a rock closer to a target than his fellow would have considered it cheating if the challangee decided to pace off the distance first.

[Bill_McBride]

Perhaps what brings us back to Scotland year after year is that from a given spot on the fairway there are probably four or five different clubs with varying swings that can produce a rolling bouncing route to the green, and on a day with wind the shots are all different again.

Gerry, see my #254 above - we are in complete accord.  Welcome aboard GCA!

[Brent Hutto]

Never mind.

[JWinick]

Shivas:

The best players in the world use range finders during their practice rounds, in which they have meticulously calculated their distances from the center of the green to various hazards that they encounter.   If you watched the coverage of the PGA, there was a segment in which the announcer talked about the various elecronic tools that PGA players use during a practice round. 

Not only did they regularly use range finders, but they also had a device that measures slope so they would be able to determine that the likely approach shop featured an 8 degree slope.   

For the record, both Tiger & Phil use a range finder during a practice round.

The best players in the world don't use rangefinders, so Brett, please explain to me why the whole argument doesn't fail?

[JWinick]

Mike:

I'm sure you're a great guy and all, but I question your competitiveness if you believe a range finder would help you play better, but you chose not to use one. 

Men have trouble admitting they're lost.  Just like many men fought GPS devices on the road, before their brains took over and realized that they are better off using technology to make themselves more efficient.   Not suprising to you all, I don't leave the house without my Garmin.

Admit that you don't know distance as well as you think you do and accept help.  Your game will be better for it.   

I have a personal opinion that range finders don't belong in competition but there is nothing I can do to change that so just have to accept it.  I played in our club's match play championship today against a really nice guy (and good player) who used a range finder and it most likely helped him beat me (I was 3 down after 3-he birdied 2 and 3) and eventually lost on 18 (I was 1 down going in) after we both reached the green in 2 (it is a severely uphill approach shot to a two tiered green and you are basically dead if you are above the hole, which is exactly where my 9 iron wound up).  I had no way of knowing exactly how far the pin was cut from the front edge (I didn't have the pin location sheet with me) and would have hit a wedge if I knew the exact location).  There is nothing I can do about it and, in fact, I find myself avoiding anyone else in the group who mentions the exact distance because it actually makes me unsure of distance since my own judgement is most likely based on inexact measurements-I actually tell playing partners not to give me distances from the range finders.

[Mike Golden]

Mike:

I'm sure you're a great guy and all, but I question your competitiveness if you believe a range finder would help you play better, but you chose not to use one. 

Men have trouble admitting they're lost.  Just like many men fought GPS devices on the road, before their brains took over and realized that they are better off using technology to make themselves more efficient.   Not suprising to you all, I don't leave the house without my Garmin.

Admit that you don't know distance as well as you think you do and accept help.  Your game will be better for it.   

[/quote]

that's a ridiculous comment.  Your preference is GPS on the golf course, mine is that I have no use for it.  I accept the fact that others may use it against me and winning isn't important enough to me at this point in my life to make me use something with which I am uncomfortable.  You are entitled to your opinion but don't tell me what to think or do, it's none of your business.  We all play golf for different reasons, what's wrong with that?  And, by the way, I've been told by more than one person from this forum I am the ultimate 'scorecard and pencil' guy when it comes to golf so it has nothing to do with competitiveness, it's just that my competitiveness is me against the golf course, not against anyone else. 

[Bill Collin]

JWonick writes:
Once nice benefit of the range finder is, unlike other technologies, it doesn't disproportionately benefit the stronger player.

It does disproportionately benefit the weaker mental player.

With my range finder, I have Steve Williams telling me how far to the pin.

Without actually having to do the work that Tiger Woods did to get where he is. Al lthe benefit, none of the work. What could be more American?

Cheers,
Dan King

In golf, humiliations are the essence of the game.
  --Alistair Cooke

I think we can just all agree that Don is mentally stronger and move on - he's reasserted it several times.  

I haven't ever seen someone's mental toughness score posted, but I'd be willing to bet that two players with equal mental toughness (or weakness)  on the golf course don't suddenly get tougher or weaker because they buy a GPS unit - but they might get smarter because they might have new knowledge added to the equation.

[Dan King]

Bill Collins writes:
I think we can just all agree that Don is mentally stronger and move on - he's reasserted it several times. 

Assuming you are writing about me and not Uncle Don, please quote where I say I am stronger than anyone.

This may surprise you to know, but some of us care about the game of golf, not our own games.

I haven't ever seen someone's mental toughness score posted, but I'd be willing to bet that two players with equal mental toughness (or weakness)  on the golf course don't suddenly get tougher or weaker because they buy a GPS unit - but they might get smarter because they might have new knowledge added to the equation.

It is surprising to find so many people here on a forum about golf course architecture that have so little respect for the mental part of the game. Can't you just test the ability to swing a golf club somewhere other than on a golf course?

I've been to the future and brought back a photo. Here is a pic of Natalie Gulbis on the first tee of her new course design:


Cheers,
Dan King

I can't believe that having said what I said was interpreted as having been what I said when I said it, because I said it where I said it, when I said it, and who I said it to.
 --Don King

[Padraig Dooley]

Just a story about Lynn Strickler, Payne Stewart and yardage.


Strickler became permanently known as The Growler because of a raspy baritone that matches his Clint Eastwood squint. Veteran caddies love repeating Strickler's exchange with a young Payne Stewart, who noticed in their first round together that every yardage given to him from the fairway ended in either a zero or a five instead of a more precise number. "How come?" asked Stewart. Growled Strickler, "Because you're not that good."

[Dan King]

I know, there are some of you old whiners who think my new Titleist Howitzer GDF595-x8 is ruining the game. Once the pros started averaging 500 yard tee shots, it seemed only fair that I should also have a way to hit 500 yard tee shots. I have a job and family, and I just don't have the time to put in that kind of practice. You got a problem with fairness?

I know, some of you old fogies think it is making the game too easy. I had to enter my credit card into their Web site. Then I had to wait for them to deliver it (it's not like they can just leave it on your front porch.) Before you start calling me lazy, I work hard for my money, and if I want to spend it on some game improvement equipment, who are you old farts to tell me I can't.

And the Titleist Howitzer GDF595-x8 isn't just something you throw in the trunk. It's a lot of work getting it to the club and ready on the first tee. I haven't even tried to get it through airport security yet. You think they will charge me for extra baggage?

It is going to speed up play. Once golfers buy these, get properly trained, and the course build the infrastructure to get them from one tee to the next, I'm sure we will get back to playing a round of golf in under 11 hours.

There is also plenty of challenge. You still have to take the coordinates from your GPS device and feed them into the Titleist Howitzer GDF595-x8. Any of those competing clubs which take the data from the GPS and feed it directly into the club is not in the spirit of the game.

I know you technophobes are going to complain it has removed the challenge from the game. Not true. Once you feed in the coordinates, what do you do if the wind changes? Do you quickly pull the trigger, or recalibrate? These are tough decisions. It is still up to the golfer to actually know when to pull the trigger. Rumor has it the next generation, the Titleist Howitzer GDF595-x9, will calibrate in half the time and be lighter. This will reduce the risk of conditions changing while the club calibrates, and make it easier to get the driver around the golf course.

Quit living in the past. It's time to stop being afraid of change and talking about the game of the ancients.

The USGA and R&A have approved this club for tournament play and for handicaps. Despite having no data to support their belief, they look at it and just know it will speed up play. The new president of the USGA said, "Not everything new has to slow down play, does it? The law of averages says something has to work one of these days."

Cheers,
Dan King

Once a new technology rolls over you, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road.
 --Stewart Brand

[JWinick]

Mike,

Well, you made my point for me.   I believe everyone should play the game the way they enjoy it - "live and let live."  However, from a purely competitive point of you, you admitted that your lack of distance knowledge cost you a match.   So, if winning is the goal in a match, you would have been better off with a range finder.   As Tiger said to his daughter after the US Open, "I got the W."   

Regarding competitiveness against the golf course versus an opponent, it makes no difference whether you are in match play, tournament play, or a casual round.  If the goal is to play better, distance knowledge helps. 

But if that's not as important to you as just the pure joy of the experience, I understand and I salute you for it. 

that's a ridiculous comment.  Your preference is GPS on the golf course, mine is that I have no use for it.  I accept the fact that others may use it against me and winning isn't important enough to me at this point in my life to make me use something with which I am uncomfortable.  You are entitled to your opinion but don't tell me what to think or do, it's none of your business.  We all play golf for different reasons, what's wrong with that?  And, by the way, I've been told by more than one person from this forum I am the ultimate 'scorecard and pencil' guy when it comes to golf so it has nothing to do with competitiveness, it's just that my competitiveness is me against the golf course, not against anyone else.

[JWinick]

Shivas,

I understand your desire to leave the hyperactive everyday world when you get on a golf course.  But, how intrusive is a rangefinder?   At least my Bushnell doesn't make any noise.   Hunters, fisherman, and other outdoorsman use electronic devices including distance knowledge devices without much controversy.  Do you look at your cell phone/Blackberry when you're on the course?  A digital watch?  Have you tried a range finder in a competitive round?  I think you would like it.

I can't understand your defense of the long putter/belly putter while you condemn the range finder as against the spirit of the game.

Tiger Woods and Ernie Els on the long putter/belly putter controversy:

"I thought the art of putting is to try and figure out how to swing both arms together,'' Woods said at the Memorial Tournament. "Anything fixed, I don't think that's right.'' Els ignited the debate last month at PGA European Tour event in Germany, where countryman Trevor Immelman of South Africa won using a belly putter. He said the putter makes it too simple for a golfer to repeat the stroke.

Stewart Cink won this year using the long putter.

"It's become such an easy way to putt," Els said. "Nerves and skill in putting is part of the game. Take a tablet if you can't handle it.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jon

“If the goal is to play better, distance knowledge helps” Believe it or not I don’t disagree with 50 %of your statement, but I do believe that distance information is finally calculated by the golfer no matter what outside source is also suggesting yardage information.

My point is if the golfer computes the final input of weather conditions, target  distance etc to generate the shot, so what the hell use are these aids apart from 'toys for the boys'. Their information cease to matter when the golfer uses his eye which send messages to his brain which then determines and gauges his current shot. So you the golfer via your brain and eyes re calculate the distance, that's why we humans can’t hit the exact spot time after time. Expect that is due to a breakdown of info from brain to the body/arms when taking the swing.

I expect I would agree with you if the Range Finder had a hard wire connection direct into the brain of the golfer. But again no allowance for a potential  breakdown of info between brain and body movement – thus again screwing up the shot.

What the golfer needs is confidence, not toys.

[Craig Sweet]

We have an obsession with gadgets.  Range finders and GPS units are fine if you're out hunting or hiking, but as an aid to golf?  Sorry, I do not think they belong on the course....99.9% of the people using them are not good enough to need such a device, and they would be far better off learning the nuances of the course and learning to hit a certain club within a range of distances...

[JWinick]

Melvyn:

Confidence is gained by knowledge and experience.   A range finder gives you accurate knowledge of the distance to the flag or any other potential trouble.   You keep insisting that people who use range finders lack confidence.  I fail to see how that makes logical sense.

Are you worried about information overload from too much information?  It takes a strong mind (not a weak mind as you assert) for someone to make a decision regarding a shot based on a number of variables, of which distance is an important one.   

[Mike Golden]

Mike,

Well, you made my point for me.   I believe everyone should play the game the way they enjoy it - "live and let live."  However, from a purely competitive point of you, you admitted that your lack of distance knowledge cost you a match.   So, if winning is the goal in a match, you would have been better off with a range finder.   As Tiger said to his daughter after the US Open, "I got the W."   

Regarding competitiveness against the golf course versus an opponent, it makes no difference whether you are in match play, tournament play, or a casual round.  If the goal is to play better, distance knowledge helps. 

But if that's not as important to you as just the pure joy of the experience, I understand and I salute you for it. 

that's a ridiculous comment.  Your preference is GPS on the golf course, mine is that I have no use for it.  I accept the fact that others may use it against me and winning isn't important enough to me at this point in my life to make me use something with which I am uncomfortable.  You are entitled to your opinion but don't tell me what to think or do, it's none of your business.  We all play golf for different reasons, what's wrong with that?  And, by the way, I've been told by more than one person from this forum I am the ultimate 'scorecard and pencil' guy when it comes to golf so it has nothing to do with competitiveness, it's just that my competitiveness is me against the golf course, not against anyone else.

I'm always amazed how some people on this forum determine that someone else's comments and opinions 'prove their point' even when the comments are diametrically opposed to the point.  That's when I stop participating in a thread, as I will do in this one.  You original post said you fail to understand why some people don't like Range Finders and how it detracts from appreciating the architecture.   I simply said I don't like Range Finders and won't use one, I don't understand how that makes your original point or makes me less of a competitor.  If using the best, newest technology makes one a 'competitor' does that mean than unless each of us has the latest, newest golf clubs that have the longest distance and are the most forgiving we are also not competitors?  My irons are 7 years old, I am comfortable with them, hit the ball solidly if I am swinging properly, and know how far each one goes.  So I suppose in your view I am also hopelessly out of touch and uncompetitive because I enjoy playing with my current equipment. 

If I were a professional who made a living on the golf course I would use every means possible to improve my scores because I have a responsibility to earn the most money I can for my family (and possibly investors).  But a recreational game has such a wide range of goals for different people there are no points to be made, it's all personal choice.  Personally, I have seen so many golfers with inherently bad swings try every means  possible to hit the ball a little further or get a little better I just want to smack them upside the head and say, 'go take some lessons and get a golf swing because there isn't enough money in the world for equipment to compensate for all the things you do wrong'-Range Finders are in the same boat for me and nothing anyone can say will change that opinion, nor will I criticize anyone else in a public forum for not having the same  opinion as mine.  But of course that is the GCA way, who am I to try to change it.

[Dan Herrmann]

Guys - GPS rangefinders do nothing that is new - they provide yardages in the same way a good caddie can do.  But they're a lot less expensive than a caddy and they speed up play. 

There's an old saying - "Choose your battles."

For pure traditionalists, this isn't the right battle.  For those pure traditionalists, go to eBay, do a search for "Balata" and pick up a dozen - they're pretty cheap.

And if you really rue the end of the balata era, check out http://cgi.ebay.com/Titleist-Balata-Final-Production-Era-Collector-Balls_W0QQitemZ320284391017QQihZ011QQcategoryZ18941QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Paul Saathoff]

Perhaps this is a generational thing.  Perhaps not.

If so maybe the younger lot of us on this site should appologize to our elders for not having to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to the golf course.  

[Melvyn Morrow]

DAN  H

There is no battle, no war, these aid, crutches, toys or whatever you want
to call them, including advice from a caddie is information gained from an outside source because those individual golfers lack confidence in their
own ability. Pity because I believe they have it within themselves to play
well without them.

As I have said before, they are legal. I believe they have been approved because our governing bodies are not interested in the game but just the money. IMHO they are betraying the spirit of the game as Judas but for
more than 30 pieces of silver.

We each have a right to our opinion and if you believe that something is wrong or not in the sprit of the game you should voice it. Let’s not forget
golf is not about the few top players or the Pro game but about the ordinary guy in the street. He finances the sport through his fees, and purchases of golfing clothing and equipment, pity it has to include carts and artificial aids and those yardage books.

There are more pressing matters, stupidly long rounds of well over 4-4.30 hours, to me that is totally unacceptable and inexcusable in this day and age. Then there is the madness of the ever increasing length of the courses. All these have been going on for years and yet our Masters have yet to take any serious action – it’s a bloody disgrace. 

I don’t disrespect someone who feels the need to use any aid, that's their choice, yes, I feel sorry that they appear to believe they need them, but let them have their crutches after all they are only hurting themselves.


Paul S

There speaks the voice of a modern golfer

[A.G._Crockett]

Perhaps this is a generational thing.  Perhaps not.

If so maybe the younger lot of us on this site should appologize to our elders for not having to walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to the golf course. 

It isn't generational, at least in my case.  I'm 56, and I argued on this site with Tom Huckaby against range finders when the USGA first changed the rule.  But I was wrong, and I told Tom so.

I like having a rangefinder.  I don't play any better, but I play faster and I don't get as tired walking around pacing stuff.  I walk to my ball, shoot the distance, and play.  Faster, period, and especially on a course I don't know.

I played my home course yesterday, where I've played probably 1500 rounds, and only pulled it out a couple of times when I was well off line and didn't want to walk around and pace distances.  Today I'm playing at another course, and I'll use it almost every hole.  I'll be faster, and that's a good thing.  All the rest is unimportant to me.  There is nothing that violates the spirit of this game I love.

Rangefinders are like any other new technology; lots of people are threatened by it, and they dress it up with a lot of noise to hide the fact that they are just really change resistant.  No big deal.

And Shivas:  As long as you have a long putter in your bag, you have not one bit of moral or traditional high ground to stand on.  I'm fine with you using the broomstick; just go easy on the pontificating about other "devices" with totally arbitrary lines like "no electronics".  I think Old Tom, Bobby Jones, et al, would have a tougher time with your putter than with my rangefinder.

[Mike Golden]

this entire thread is a joke.  'Competitiveness' or the 'lack of competitveness' is such bs.  I walk when I play competitive rounds and don't use a Range finder.  Why should I give a crap about losing a match to someone who chooses to ride and rely on a Range Finder for the exact distance?  We are playing two different sports, that's why golf has become a game for me against the golf course with an occasional match against someone else.  One thing I would not do is play for serious money (anything more than a few dollars) against someone in a cart with a GPS or Range Finder.  I'm 61, let's see some of you cartballing/range finding junkies with vanity handicaps because of it play a tough match in 90 degree heat where you actually have to be in good enough shape to get to 18 and make a good swing in a close match.  Until then don't pontificate about how Range Finders help you play better or it's a 'generational thing' and us older guys claim we had it so much more difficult.  What we really have is a healthy respect for the traditions and spirit of the game and prefer to play it in a manner consistent with the way it's been played for centuries.  I use yardage markers all the time as a reference but that doesn't provide anything close to the accuracy of a Range Finder and that, in my opinion, provides an unfair advantage when you can stand at a 150 marker and say, 'the pin is 157' when my eye is telling me something different because of terrain or just architectural genius.  That's where this concept of how Range Finders don't get in the way of appreciating architecture fails because it eliminates the doubt put into a golfer's mind BY THE ARCHITECT!  Anyone who has played holes like #2 at Pasatiempo, #6 at Bethpage Black, #11 at Lake Merced, or any other hole where the yardage marker says one thing, your brain says another, and the reality is something else because of the design truly understand it.  The rest of you, unfortunately, just don't get it.

[Brent Hutto]

Mike,

So let's say you had played the eleventh at Lake Merced 500 times and I was seeing it for the very first time. We're playing a friendly match for a dollar a hole. It would be perfectly fair for you to hit the correct shot based on your years of experience there and watch me hit it OB over the green because I got fooled by the architecture. Them's the breaks, you win a dollar.

Yet in the same situation if I pull out a rangefinder, get an exact number and hit the ball five feel from the hole I'm cheating you out of something because I was supposed to be fooled even if you were not.

That's a mighty two-faced attitude right there. The old selective moral indignation.

[Dean Stokes]

Shivas,

Thankyou for your well thought out reply to my "do you have an opinion on the belly putter issue"?

Had I known that you were a 'user' of such a club I should have expected a well thought answer as you have obviously been badgered about this before.

The spin that you put on this topic to turn the whole issue into a 'spirit of the game issue' is very admirable and obviously makes you feel comfortable using a club that if the ruling authorities in the game had have acted quicker would surely have been banned.

You are against the range finder and that is fine. I use one in practise and friendly rounds of golf to speed up my play when on carts. I do not think in anyway it helps my score as I still have to figure many outside variables and then make a good swing. I do think however and have commented many times to my playing partners who use the long putter, that I believe they are cheating and that they should not be allowed to use such a club.

If you cannot putt in the traditional style - tough, learn. You should not be allowed to anchor the club to another part of your body in order to counter act lack of confidence or skill with the flatstick. That luxury is not available with any other club and there is no place for it in this game.

I obviously have the same disdain for the long putter as you have for the range finder. When I see one in somebody's bag it makes me feel nausiated. If I'm caddying for them it really pisses me off that I have to carry that ugly, awkward thing - then I have to watch them use it.

Fortunately I never had the misfortune to caddy for a player that asked me to carry two putters onto the green for him

[Joe Hancock]

Brent,

You would get in a wager with a man who, assuming all else is equal, has a 500:1 experience ratio on the golf course you're playing?

Joe

[Mike Golden]

Mike,

So let's say you had played the eleventh at Lake Merced 500 times and I was seeing it for the very first time. We're playing a friendly match for a dollar a hole. It would be perfectly fair for you to hit the correct shot based on your years of experience there and watch me hit it OB over the green because I got fooled by the architecture. Them's the breaks, you win a dollar.

Yet in the same situation if I pull out a rangefinder, get an exact number and hit the ball five feel from the hole I'm cheating you out of something because I was supposed to be fooled even if you were not.

That's a mighty two-faced attitude right there. The old selective moral indignation.

Brent,

I've actually told everyone I've ever taken to Lake Merced to play that shot with one club more than it looks, just like I've given everyone advice on local knowledge on every hole on the golf course when it was warranted.  And people like Huck, Pittock, Vanderborght, etc, etc, etc, would be the first ones to confirm that.  Would I do that in an interclub match?  Of course not, but in a friendly match it is the fair thing to do.

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