[Jim Wagner]

LOL...you guys have way too much time on your hands!!!

[JWinick]

Maybe, Jim.   I guess those of us on this site are passionate about the game of golf and we tend to have views on how the game should be played. 

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
I received a 12-year old who literally could not carry my bag.  He couldn't read the greens.
Was this fair?

This is the heart of the difference. The pro-GPS crowd seem to believe their gadgets make the game more fair. To them, it is about fairness. Getting a less-than-stellar caddy is unfair. They don't see it as a test of themselves, they just see it as unfair to them. It is the entire Americanization of golf C.B. Macdonad warned about 100 years ago. They have no idea about the spirit of the game, thinking it should be just like other American games, based on fairness. Anything that interferes with their fairness doctrine has to be eliminated.

The pro-GPS crowd, along with the ruling bodies of the USGA and R&A, do not understand the spirit of golf. It's a shame, but the argument will continue as long as the pro-Americanization of golf crowd fail to understand golf.

"So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human receive what he conceives as equity in life? He has to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch or play. The essence of the game is inequality as it is in humanity. The conditions which are meted out to the players, such as inequality of ground, cannot be governed by a green committee with the flying divots of the players or their4 footprints in the bunkers. Take your medicine where you find it and don't cry. Remember that the other fellow has got to meet exactly the same inequalities. Johnny Low says it is this idea of equity with which the brains of so many golfers are obsessed, and at the bottom of it all is the outcry against the stymie."
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

I didn't complain

Funny, I could have sworn I read you complaining somewhere.

Cheers,
Dan King

The least thing upset him on the links. He missed short putts because of the uproar of the butterflies in the adjoining meadows.
  --P.G. Wodehouse

[Jeff Shelman]

I guess I didn't realize I was a cheater/bad guy because I carry a GolfLogix GPS unit in my bag.

I rather like having the GPS unit. Mine is rather simple. It lists distances to a few things off the tee and provides distances to the front, middle and back of greens. I use it, in part, because I got it for free and in part because it's quicker than always finding a yardage marker. I look down at the thing as I'm nearing my ball, read the numbers and put it back in my bag.

I don't think it has really impacted my scoring at all, certainly not on my home course. Before I pull a club, I still have to consider: elevation change, wind, turf conditions near the green, lie, what might have to be carried and how I've been hitting the ball. I think there are plenty of things in there to create doubt. I still have to hit the shot and that doesn't always go as well as I would hope.

My take on the whole thing is that golf as a whole is a lot like a shot around the green: There are many ways to play it. You can bump-and-run, you can pitch, you can throw it up in the air, you can try to spin it, you can play for some run out.

My point is simply that I don't think the game is in any sort of position where people should make judgements about whether someone else is playing the game "wrong."

Some people like to walk and carry their clubs. Some people won't play if they can't ride. Some people like minimalism. Others like fancy Fazio courses with waterfalls and the like. Some people are serious. Others see golf as little more than an opportunity to be outside with friends and have a bunch of beer.

I don't really have much interest in going to the muni with a t-shirt and cut off jeans and a cooler, but others do. Who am I to judge that what they are doing is wrong.

If we play, I'm probably going to have my GPS unit. I'll share any distance with you that you want. If you don't want any distances, I won't tell you them. If you like these things, great. If not, that's OK too. I'm much more interested in whether someone is a gentleman and someone I'd like to spend several hours with than whether or not they approve of GPS units and range finders.

[JESII]

I've got a date with a caddie in a couple of hours who I consider a friend.  He won't read a putt and rarely give me a yardage, I know the course better than him, and I doubt that we will exchange more than half a dozen quips in what will be close to 5 hours including range time... 

You take your caddy to the range with you???

Do you have him tee up yor balls while he's there?

[John Kavanaugh]

No,  I took a driver and a 6 iron over and he waited up at the putting green talking to his buddies.  It was a college kid who I had never met that must have been told that I am not interested in having help reading greens.  It was a hot day and the only instruction that I asked for was to fix my ball marks so I could limit bending over as much as possible.

Played with Joe Bausch who I would call a secrect stick.

[JWinick]

Just heard that the owner of Friar's Head is playing in the Met Amateur.  Naturally, Friar's Head bans range finders, GPS devices, and doesn't have sprinkler heads.  You are welcome to use one of their 40 caddies, though.

I'll be you that the owner Ken Bakst has an excellent caddy.   Perhaps, he should be allowed to carry 15 clubs as well.   Don't you think he has a significant advantage?   

Just another example of the absurdity of banning range finders.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jon

"Just another example of the absurdity of banning
 range finders"... OR USING THEM?

PS Does yours have an AM/FM facility and can you
     pick up The BBC World Service?

[John Kavanaugh]

Just heard that the owner of Friar's Head is playing in the Met Amateur.  Naturally, Friar's Head bans range finders, GPS devices, and doesn't have sprinkler heads.  You are welcome to use one of their 40 caddies, though.

I'll be you that the owner Ken Bakst has an excellent caddy.   Perhaps, he should be allowed to carry 15 clubs as well.   Don't you think he has a significant advantage?   

Just another example of the absurdity of banning range finders.

Considering the players get a practice round...for free I suppose...I don't think Bakst has an unfair advantage at all in terms of distance calculation.  Its not like the super puts Extenze in the water and the course lengthens overnight.  There is nothing wrong with the stereotype that golfers are more educated than most athletes.  Math is math and it works the same yesterday that it will tomorrow.

The only advantage Bakst has is in reading the greens and time proven strategic choices.  All this will eventually be negated by the Caddie in Your Pocket that uses its large database of previously hit shots to recommend the best course of action or line of putt.  Pull out a tooth and maybe the fair fairy will leave one under your pillow.

[Andy Troeger]

Knowing nothing other than what I've read on these threads, something tells me that if Mr. Bakst cares about his golf course as much as it seems like he does that he might be able to show his caddie a thing or two about the course as much as the other way around.

[JWinick]

John:

My point was that anti-range finder people are often used to playing on their home course and they would be at a disadvantage if competitors had the same imformation they had intuitively.   Finally, no green-reading tool will ever be approved by the USGA.   All the range-finder does in a tournament is provide the same information a caddy would provide you by walking off sprinkler heads and using the day's pin sheets.   

Just heard that the owner of Friar's Head is playing in the Met Amateur.  Naturally, Friar's Head bans range finders, GPS devices, and doesn't have sprinkler heads.  You are welcome to use one of their 40 caddies, though.

I'll be you that the owner Ken Bakst has an excellent caddy.   Perhaps, he should be allowed to carry 15 clubs as well.   Don't you think he has a significant advantage?   

Just another example of the absurdity of banning range finders.

Considering the players get a practice round...for free I suppose...I don't think Bakst has an unfair advantage at all in terms of distance calculation.  Its not like the super puts Extenze in the water and the course lengthens overnight.  There is nothing wrong with the stereotype that golfers are more educated than most athletes.  Math is math and it works the same yesterday that it will tomorrow.

The only advantage Bakst has is in reading the greens and time proven strategic choices.  All this will eventually be negated by the Caddie in Your Pocket that uses its large database of previously hit shots to recommend the best course of action or line of putt.  Pull out a tooth and maybe the fair fairy will leave one under your pillow.

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

Given the issue of slow play and the baby steps recently taken by Titleist in putting a cheater line on their ball there is no question in my mind that the USGA will soon allow green reading devices for amateur tournaments.  Considering GPS devices are already allowed it is a natural progression with advances in mapping technology that your device, hand held or cart mounted, will soon show green contours to the benefit of the golfer.

I can not understand why you think it is not fair for a competitor to have a caddie that knows yardage but feel it is alright for one caddie to read greens better than another. Until everyone knows how greens break to the exact same detail you will never have the equity you desire.

Do you see anything wrong with technology that would locate balls quickly and speed up play?  There are few things more valuable than a caddie that can find a ball through thick and thin.  Didn't Gary Player employ one of those guys?

[JWinick]

John:

If I were running a tournament, I would allow range finders and allow the players to bring their own caddy.   Certainly, some caddies read greens better than others and you're right, it is difficult to create a perfectly fair environment.   If you're having a competition, you always try to make it as fair as possible without compromising the game.  We have a respective disagreement on whether range finders compromise the spirit.   

Regarding locating balls, I think that a golfer who hits a ball wayward, deserves the punishment of a potential lost ball.  Certainly, you can get a great break and find a ball in the deep rough that is sitting up tight.   So, I would be opposed to any technology that helps you find the golf ball.   However, such a technology might actually hurt the wayward golfer, who might be better off re-teeing anyway.   

I'm opposed to green-reading technology.  I'm not sure what you mean about Titleist's recent steps.   Certainly, the powers that be will not allow Al Czervik's putter into the game.   

Is just seems like anyone who supports the concept of a range finder, is accused of favoring every kind of technology by some on this site.   There is a clear consensus in the golfing community to stop technology from ruining the game.   Whether the USGA brass has the chutzpah to do something about it is the question. 

J,

Given the issue of slow play and the baby steps recently taken by Titleist in putting a cheater line on their ball there is no question in my mind that the USGA will soon allow green reading devices for amateur tournaments.  Considering GPS devices are already allowed it is a natural progression with advances in mapping technology that your device, hand held or cart mounted, will soon show green contours to the benefit of the golfer.

I can not understand why you think it is not fair for a competitor to have a caddie that knows yardage but feel it is alright for one caddie to read greens better than another. Until everyone knows how greens break to the exact same detail you will never have the equity you desire.

Do you see anything wrong with technology that would locate balls quickly and speed up play?  There are few things more valuable than a caddie that can find a ball through thick and thin.  Didn't Gary Player employ one of those guys?

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
Finally, no green-reading tool will ever be approved by the USGA.

Say that three times, while clicking the heals of your ruby golf shoes together.

That's the best chance of your prediction coming true.

I think I would really enjoy your argument against a green reading device.

Cheers.
Dan King

When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
 --Oscar Wilde

[Bruce Leland]

J,

Given the issue of slow play and the baby steps recently taken by Titleist in putting a cheater line on their ball....

I've been on the sidelines here for a while on this one BUT...   John, from reading some of your posts here it would seem that you are an experienced tournament golfer.  Since the "cheater line" on Titleist balls is a recent addition how did you line up your putts prior to the addition of the arrowed line?  Are you really taking issue with this?  I'll assume that you are based on your characterization of the alignment aid as cheating.  Did you not use the Titleist script to line up your putts prior to the addition of the line?

What's the difference? 

[Sean_A]

J,

Given the issue of slow play and the baby steps recently taken by Titleist in putting a cheater line on their ball....

I've been on the sidelines here for a while on this one BUT...   John, from reading some of your posts here it would seem that you are an experienced tournament golfer.  Since the "cheater line" on Titleist balls is a recent addition how did you line up your putts prior to the addition of the arrowed line?  Are you really taking issue with this?  I'll assume that you are based on your characterization of the alignment aid as cheating.  Did you not use the Titleist script to line up your putts prior to the addition of the line?

What's the difference? 

Oh no, its the Shivas show!

Ciao

[Bruce Leland]

 [/quote]

Oh no, its the Shivas show!

Ciao
[/quote]Sean, OK sorry for dredging this up again....I just read Shivas' thread!  Actually, JK brought it up in passing and I jumped all over it.  I'm sure Shivas will chime in about the apocalypse  soon.

[John Kavanaugh]

J,

Given the issue of slow play and the baby steps recently taken by Titleist in putting a cheater line on their ball....

I've been on the sidelines here for a while on this one BUT...   John, from reading some of your posts here it would seem that you are an experienced tournament golfer.  Since the "cheater line" on Titleist balls is a recent addition how did you line up your putts prior to the addition of the arrowed line?  Are you really taking issue with this?  I'll assume that you are based on your characterization of the alignment aid as cheating.  Did you not use the Titleist script to line up your putts prior to the addition of the line?

What's the difference? 

Bruce,

I played my first tournament round in 1968 and I do not recall seeing anyone using a line on their ball until the very recent future.  I have found balls with lines drawn on and have attempted to use that method to improve my putting.  Sadly a combination of obesity, impatience and age makes it impossible for me to bend over my ball and line it up with the line then putt.  I find myself out of breath, not liking the line and needing to calculate the angle to the line on the ball to find the correct line for my stroke.  For this reason I need a perfectly clean top of ball in an attempt to keep my mind less confused.  Who started this line on the ball thing anyway?  

[Peter Pallotta]

I think when Tiger got that laser eye surgery, that was the thing. Vijay too. Otherwise, it's just too much information, and not as John K might think age and impatience. I can't line my putter-head correctly to the line (even if I can see the line), so why would I try to line up a line to the line to the line, and a short little line that curves around at that?

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting take Peter,

After wasting several hours over several days following the Cheater Line thread when it was the hot topic, I must admit, I couldn't look at placing my ball in the same way again.  I felt compelled, almost pulled towards using the cheater line.  It was like a black hole that sucked me in.  And I don't even know why I felt that way because the USGA boys have already given its usage thier blessing. 

To this day its still tough to place the ball on the green with just a bare white patch showing....I guess I need therapy now or something.

[Kalen Braley]

Shivas,

Outside of a digital watch to keep track of time to make sure your playing in 4 hours or less, and/or a golf cart on an unwalkable track, I can't think of one.

Granted people take cameras, but not sure if thats really considered apart of golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Forget the cheater line.  We all know that that's a violation of the spirit of 8(b), not mention the language - even though the USGA is too afraid of Tiger to ban it.

Will somebody please explain to me what place electronics have in golf?

Electronics have a foot hold in all of life.  Less than an hour ago I asked my wife if she needed some extra cash because earlier in the week I canceled her ATM and credit cards.  I even sympathized with her saying I understand how difficult it must be without the plastic.  She said the only person hurt by the situation is my young son because she can't always feed him when he is hungry.  Somebody call the Olson twins cause I need mega doses of Oxycotton.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen - I have to admit I too like looking at SOMETHING on the golf ball, just not something that I'm suppossed to do anything WITH (like a line). That something I like looking at is the script/logo...I think I choose my golf balls a little bit by how pretty it is. The "Ben Hogan" script is very nice, for example, and so is Titlelist, and and the B-330 looks kind of cool. On the other hand, I had to stop using Noodles because I was sick of looking at that goofy word and script.

Yup, a real golfer I am....

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Shiv,

I detect a bit of double standards going on here? 

Galavanting across the country on learjets, eating lavish turf and serf dinners, and playing some of the best golf courses known to mankind.

Yet Momma can't have a little bit of fun at home to add a few new pair of shoes for her Immelda Marcos tribute collection? 

[Sean_A]

But even if you were 28 at the time, you still wouldn't have seen it because nobody did it until about 1998.

Shivas

You must be joking.  I have been lining up the script with a line on putter since I can remember.  Since I have only had two putters in my life this goes back quite a spell - probably around 1975.  I know it was pre 76 because that was the year that goofy pitcher from Detroit had HIS year - I can't recall his name - Mark Fiditch or something like that - THE BIRD IS THE WORD.  But then, I have never been a very good putter!

Ciao

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