[John Kavanaugh]

Fighting the good fight against information pollution and electronic wizardry is an important cause because of what lies around the corner.

Why do pros get to have caddies line them up for shots or putts and the average golfer does not?  What would be wrong with electronic alignment devices like lasers on putter heads?  What is the difference between the argument for these and range finders?

[Chris Cupit]

I guess I'm a luddite of sorts but I have given up the fight because the technology horse is way out of the barn.

I am one of those guys who thought that the ability to use your own eyes and judgement as to how far to hit the ball was an integral skill in playing the game.  But, about 50 years ago with the arrival of paced yardages and the insistence upon knowing to the yard how far one was (at least for the pros) the downhill slide began.

I also think that when it was the player and his caddie working together to figure this out it was a more needed and more interesting "partnership" between player and caddie.  Caddies are far less needed today since the exact yardages are much easier to know--caddies are an expensive luxury for most now and far too often are nothing more than bag toters.

BUT, I say now that we allow yardage books, sprinklers, GPS units, lasers, et al. it is stupid not to embrace the technology that will make the game easier, faster and more enjoyable.   Whether or not it accomplishes any of these doesn't matter--it is what the golf customer today PERCEiVES as necessary that matters.  I say use it all.

Worse than the need for the yardage is the reliance on caddies to assist in lining up (especially on the LPGA tour).  Can we at least cut a deal and say the player can get yardages in whatever manner he wants but you have to at least line yourself up without assistance??

[Cliff Hamm]

 

I would love to see all yardage and distance markers removed from all course. Those who play the same course on a regular basis may use trees, rock etc as a subconscious marker, but that is the human mind at work which is what actually drives us on in all things.

This gets at the essence of the question.  If yardage books, markers, etc. are allowed then there is nothing wrong with GPS.  I would go as far as saying this includes caddies.  Just because caddies traditionally have given yardage does not mean it is in the best spirit of the game.  Especially true when pro caddies pace off every square inch of  a course.  Is it fair for me to play against an opponent who has a caddy who can give him information? 

Therefore the answer is all or none.  Either yardage aids are allowed including technology and caddies or none.  BTW none would also speed up the game as it would only be your thought processes and visualization.  No conferring with the caddying, no pacing, etc.  Take your pick.

[Chris Cupit]

Therefore the answer is all or none. 

Well said.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just because the cat is out of the bag doesn't mean it should breed with a racoon. Stick a spade in information pollution before someone else sticks it in you.

[Cliff Hamm]

BTW...as much as i have stated my preference for GPS given all or none I would pick none.  Why than don't I do that?  Because even if not in a competitive round I want to see what I can shoot given a level playing field.  If others are putting in handicaps, etc are using yardage aids I will too, but I would love for it all to be outlawed.

[Dan King]

JWinick writes:
Why shouldn't golf attempt to be fair?  Or seek to be fairer when at all possible?  I believe that is part of the mission of the game.

I think this is the fundamental difference between pro-GPS crowd and anti-GPS crowd.

American golf wants to be about the shots. It doesn't believe golf should be anything beyond who can hit the best shots. Golf as it was meant to be played was just as much about the mental aspect of the game as about the physical aspect. American golf wants to eliminate any mental part of the game. My hope is someday the Americanized version will move indoors, into an even more controlled environment and leave the nasty outdoors to those of us that still like the game of golf.

We all get bad breaks and bad bounces, but wouldn't you be frustrated if you overclubbed a pure 8-iron to a back pin location?

Yes it is frustrating. And that is the beauty of golf. How well do you handle hitting the purest 8-iron of your life to the wrong spot? If you accept the bad breaks similar to how you accept the good breaks you will be a better golfer. Not a better American golfer, but a better golfer.

If you knew the distance, you'd have a makeable birdie putt.

And that is American golf in a nutshell. Be able to take your driving range game to the golf course. Do you really need to play your silly game on a golf course? Doesn't nature just interfere with the game you are trying to play?

Hopefully you and the PGA Tour® will someday figure out they can control all aspects of the game by taking it indoors. Maybe it will take a lawsuit by some journeyman, trying to shoot a good score to earn his card who gets stuck with a crappy tee time.

Perhaps I found my calling. My plans include law school, maybe this is just the case for me when I finish, suing the PGA Tour® over their allowing nature to dictate so much of Americanized golf.

I understand the romantic, whimsical aspect of a bad break or two.   But, why promote that?

Why eliminate them?

Cheers,
Dan King

On the golf course, a man may be the dogged victim of inexorable fate, be struck down by an appalling stroke of tragedy, become the hero of unbelievable melodrama, or the clown in a side-splitting comedy.
  --Robert Tyre Jones

[Cliff Hamm]

Dan...range finders have been approved by both the USGA and the R&A so in this case you can't claim this is purely 'Americanized'.

[Tony Ristola]

"...that awesome “chipped” 5-iron from 125 yards―no-one can seriously think knowledge of the yardage had any influence of his execution."

Not the execution but decision certainly. That and the typical myriad of processes that go through a player's mind.  His lie, hole location, landing area contours, hazard locations. If he had 145 yards with an uphill lie he may have selected and entirely different club and shot. Even a different lie at 125.

I'll bet you the first XXXX upon my arrival one day, that he knew the exact yardage... to the front of the green, to the hole and even contours at the entrance to the green. I didn't see the shot, but heard about it. My guess is he was über-informed. 

You have his number don't cha mate?

[Melvyn Morrow]

So are we moving on? Have we got a consensus of opinion that yardage aids (including distance advice from Caddies) should be banned?

No, I don’t think we have. Pity

The problem is that info on distance is like a drug to all those that feed on it. They are blind to the addiction, perhaps the necessity to win is all that matters, it IMHO distorts the quality of the game and questions the worth to the player.

What is an aid if not a tool TO HELP YOU WIN, yet in reality it is just a crutch, an artificial aid require by those who perhaps do not have the ability or even interest in calculate using your own inbuilt path finder (eyes/brain) whilst approaching their ball.

The ridicules part of all this is that these golfer try and justify their actions –the fact of the matter is that they are using artificial aids/information to hopefully improve their game –  Whatever you have achieved from using outside information is tarnishing your own credibility as a golfer. Attack all those who speak against you but you will keep coming back to the simple matter of the truth – you are using artificial aids to assist your game.

But if it makes your life easier, you like to shows your own inability to walk and think at the same time, then fine, that’s the way you want to play your game. I presume that you see no problem in an a 100M Sprinter taking steroids – live and let live – but it still does not change the basic facts that your game needs, uses an artificial aid.

Guys, you just don’t need them, you have the built-in ability to enjoy your game. They are just toys for the boys and should have no place on a golf course.

That’s my Opinion.  The governing bodies yet again prove their inability to understand the game they are meant to be controlling by allowing yardage aids of any sort. There are time I wonder if they really care about the game of Golf or its future

Clint you should know the expression “A Man’s gotta know his limitations”, how can he learn if he uses aids all the time?

[Tony Ristola]

The problem is that info on distance is like a drug to all those that feed on it. They are blind to the addiction, perhaps the necessity to win is all that matters, it IMHO distorts the quality of the game and questions the worth to the player.

What is an aid if not a tool TO HELP YOU WIN, yet in reality it is just a crutch, an artificial aid require by those who perhaps do not have the ability or even interest in calculate using your own inbuilt path finder (eyes/brain) whilst approaching their ball.

Melvin you are correct. I use the device and yardage guides as an aid to winning. That is part of the fun.

When Tiger was asked, after a long diatribe by one journalist about Rocco's age, their relationship etc... the journalist finally got around to his question to Tiger... "What would you want your daughter to know about this tournament when she is older?" Tiger: "I got the "W".

There is zero wrong with playing to win if you are competing. Zero. Why compete if you don't play to win?

In the old days caddies were a big aid. The game is democratized to the point not everyone can afford a caddy. Instead we have yardage guides and lasers.  It speeds up the process... call them pocket caddies... affordable by all.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tony

I understand your point of view – still feel that ALL distance aids should be banned.

IMHO  Distance aids are not aiding the Game of Golf and I believe at the very least question the interest and integrity of our governing bodies in allowing yardage information of any sort (apart from the distance and par rating). I firmly believe that the game both professional and on our local course would improve dramatically by their demise. Happy for the TV coverage to keep the public informed but not the players.   

[Tony Ristola]

Melvyn: Funny timing with this topic and the Sr. Open.  It was almost 50-years ago when a young Jack Nicklaus discovered the use of the yardage book at Broadmoor during the US Am. Deane Beaman was using one. Unless my memory is faulty, I recall reading about it (many moons ago) in The Greatest Game of All... Nicklaus & HW Wind.

[Sean_A]

Sean:
Par is a scam concept?   No markers at all?   I'm not sure where this coming from.   Hey, I appreciate and admire your passion for the architecture, but what about the game itself?  

I side precisely with DK.  Using machines to do your thinking erodes an element of the game AND makes it a folly for archies to create visual deception.  But then I would be happy if there were no markers at all - including the tee.  Yardage connects the game far too much to par - which is another scam concept.  Though I have no idea why I would be a luddite.  If I am building a house fine - use the best machines and tools available.  But we are meant to be playing a game.  

J

I absolutely believe that par is a goofy concept.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the game itself.  Nor do yardage aids.  Of course, its just my opinion and like I said before, I am not terribly bothered by folks who want all the latest gadgets.  I will never understand it for the guy who is meant to be playing for the love of the game, but it doesn't botehr so much.  In fact, I get a chuckle out of it because I know for most people, most of the junk is a waste of money.  But so what?  We all have to waste money on something(s) or life would be a drag.  My real beef about all of this is that the architecture gets cheapened or as Pat M says, dumbed down.  After a while, archies won't bother to put in some cool features because it will be a waste of time with heavy duty machines available to do the thinking - but then I have plenty of cool places I can play which archies hopefully won't be able to screw up trying to please the machine heads out there.  

Ciao

[Dan King]

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan...range finders have been approved by both the USGA and the R&A so in this case you can't claim this is purely 'Americanized'.

Americanized golf isn't a game only played in America. It is a game influenced by Americans, using the American concept of equality. It really isn't fair that some people are smarter than others, therefore, especially in sports, we need to remove the whole mental aspect of the game, and make it only physical.

The USGA and R&A have bought into the Americanization of golf. They have given up any right to define the game of golf.

Maybe it is time for those of us that love the game of golf to concede defeat. We can rename our game gowf, and let them play Americanized golf. Instead of beating our heads against the wall every time they mess with our game, we just go off and play our own game and work on convincing them they need to take their game indoors. Is it really fair someone hits an 8-iron to the fourth hole and a breeze throws it a bit off line? Indoors every competitor could face identical breezes on the fourth hole. What could be more fair?

Cheers,
Dan King

Excessive golfing dwarfs the intellect. Nor is this to be wondered at when we consider that the more fatuously vacant the mind is, the better for play. It has been observed that absolute idiots play the steadiest.
  --Sir Walter Simpson  (The Art of Golf)

[Tony Ristola]

My real beef about all of this is that the architecture gets cheapened or as Pat M says, dumbed down.  After a while, archies won't bother to put in some cool features because it will be a waste of time with heavy duty machines available to do the thinking - but then I have plenty of cool places I can play which archies hopefully won't be able to screw up trying to please the machine heads out there. 

Ciao

I'll turn this on its head and say because of technology, it offers the architect the excuse to design cool features. To combat "the machine heads". To combat yardage guides... which have been around for longer than most of us have been alive.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tony

Why should Architects design cool things – no one will notice them as they will be too busy driving their carts on the new superhighway of GPS aided cart tracks or when not driving trying to read their high tech gadgets.
Is this what you want golf to turn into?

Those who drink beer on their carts need not reply as clearly you have no respect for the game or your fellow players IMHO.

[Tony Ristola]

Well... I wasn't talking about GPS carts. I'm a walker, unless circumstances force me to do otherwise, but Yardage guides and lasers... just don't bother me.

Technology, and the lack of mystery allows architects to introduce some ("cool things"... a poor choice of words, even if quoting). It's a wee bit like the old days when architects found ingenious ways to use rugged terrain.

Now, when it comes to gadgets... I would love to see 95% of the golf carts in the world go straight to the crusher. The concrete, asphalt ribbons that pollute the landscape do zippo for me. Though I understand their need in torturous climates and terrain and for some of our seniors.

[Bill Collin]

Golf is not about gadgetry. Red-blooded amateurs have no need for it; on the contrary, it's rather embarrassing when viewing it's employment. Gadgets completely contravene what golf is all about. I'm not overly excited about yardage markers, either, but if I happen to twist my ankle on one, sure, I'll have a peek. They're not far off being useless, either, for there's never any guarantee of perfect contact between the ball and club. They heavily contribute to slow-play, as golfers wander from side to side of fairways trying to locate their positioning, prior to the calculus exam. More golfers would be better off figuring out how to visualise what 132 metres feels like, as opposed to 138 metres. It's precisely why keen golfers must play in Britain, to learn how to throw out the yardage book. There's no way to teach someone how to hit a "quiet" 250-yard six-iron down gale, factoring-in 50 yards of roll. When Greg Norman hit the shot of the tournament in the Open at Royal Birkdale a couple of weeks ago―that awesome “chipped” 5-iron from 125 yards―no-one can seriously think knowledge of the yardage had any influence of his execution. As it turned out, I guess Harrington's 2nd shot on the 71st was really the shot of the tourney.  

I don't get it.  

I'm not a big fan of the GPS cart systems with yardage right to the flag and every hazard - its information overload - but my handheld GPS does little that couldn't be done in another way.  I doubt you'd have any idea that I was even using it.  All I do is take a quick glance a couple of numbers.  I get yardage to the center of the green and maybe the front or back depending where I see the flag.  I do the same without the GPS except I have to pace it off.  In either case, I use the information to make a decision on what kind of shot to play, the distance I want it to fly it, etc.  Then I still have to play the shot.

If you want nobody to have yardages, then eliminate sprinkler head marking, bushes/trees, stakes and fairway plates.  Then you'll have to outlaw yardage books because if there are none of those, people will take their own notes to find the yardages anyway.  

Seems like a lot of fuss about nothing to me.

[Melvyn Morrow]

'Seems like a lot of fuss about nothing to me'

There speaks a guy who loves golf and but needs yardage to play -
Bill, you do not need to pace it out or yardage books, clearly your
your game is missing something, Ah yes freedom to think for yourself.

Try and play without all this crap and enjoy yourself - relax and let the
little grey cells do the work. You may, just may find you are enjoying yourself

[Bill Collin]

'Seems like a lot of fuss about nothing to me'

There speaks a guy who loves golf and but needs yardage to play -
Bill, you do not need to pace it out or yardage books, clearly your
your game is missing something, Ah yes freedom to think for yourself.

Try and play without all this crap and enjoy yourself - relax and let the
little grey cells do the work. You may, just may find you are enjoying yourself

I was only mentioning 'having' to pace it off to get the exact same number as a GPS. I'm not locked into it. Pre-GPS (which I've only used for a few rounds so far) I more often than not looked at the 150 plate and figured I was +10, -20 or whatever.  I don't think I'm missing out on smelling the roses along the way because I know the actual yardage.  If anything, knowing the number removes doubt and let's me enjoy the shot even more.  YMMV.

[Dan King]

Bill Collin writes:
If anything, knowing the number removes doubt and let's me enjoy the shot even more.

Of course. God forbid anyone should ever face any sort of doubt while on a golf course.

Cheers,
Dan King

Doubt yourself and you doubt everything you see. Judge yourself and you see judges everywhere. But if you listen to the sound of your own voice, you can rise above doubt and judgment. And you can see forever.
 --Nancy Lopez

[C. Squier]

Clint you should know the expression “A Man’s gotta know his limitations”, how can he learn if he uses aids all the time?

Melvyn, I had a long argument written, but I deleted it.  I play golf for fun, I could care less about winning.  If you have more fun by guessing yardages, but player B has more fun by using a satellite to beam down distances, who cares.  People don't flock to the game because they care how you, I or anyone else plays it.  They find their own place within the game and go from there.  The split second that a Scottish man used a caddy who offered their advice on yardage, artificial aids were welcomed into the game.  Since then, they're just different permutations of that young lad who told his boss which club to hit.  All the pre-shot calculus that your brain does, or someone's rangefinder does is null and void if they can't draw the club back and hit a shot.  I've never met a player who could think a ball into the hole, but I've met a few who could hit it there. 

CPS

[Bill Collin]

Bill Collin writes:
If anything, knowing the number removes doubt and let's me enjoy the shot even more.

Of course. God forbid anyone should ever face any sort of doubt while on a golf course.

Cheers,
Dan King

Doubt yourself and you doubt everything you see. Judge yourself and you see judges everywhere. But if you listen to the sound of your own voice, you can rise above doubt and judgment. And you can see forever.
 --Nancy Lopez

I didn't say "removes all doubt".  Everything I do to better understand the course and the shot at hand helps to reduce doubt and allows me to concentrate on hittin  the shot at hand well.  Hitting good shots is one of the true joys I get from the game.

I guess there's only one way to play the game for you, huh?  I won't judge how you play - that's your business - and you're entitled to do as you wish.  Me too?  BTW, I find it interesting that both of the guys critiquing my view decided to quote just a single line of what I have to say.

I enjoying playing the game as it presents a number of wonderful challenges - unfortunately, finding my ball is often one of them.  Using all the legal tools available to overcome those challenges is what I do.  I also carry 14 clubs even though it might be more challenging to carry 8.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

How many holes in one are the result of a GPS/Range Finder/yardage book?

If not required for these holes, why, why do you need them for all the others?

Have fun and prosper O’HighTechOne

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