Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?

[Eric_Terhorst]

JWinick

Growing up playing golf in America, I can't ever remember a golf course in my youth that did not have at least a 150 yard marker.  One gets used to that.  But I have played and enjoyed many courses that had only that, or a 100-150-200 marker scheme, or yardages to the middle on the sprinkler heads.  That's as much as I want.  I enjoy figuring out the rest. 

Rangefinders (snooze)--one more gadget in my life, which I certainly don't need, and I sincerely doubt they speed up play.  GPS (aargh) on Carts (aargh) are symbolic of many things wrong with golf in the USofA today.

And many of those with rangefinders--even strangers that you've just met--insist on announcing your yardage even if you haven't asked. 

Hopefully you're not one of those.  If you are , Shut...The...F***...Up. 

[C. Squier]

Clint

How many holes in one are the result of a GPS/Range Finder/yardage book?

If not required for these holes, why, why do you need them for all the others?

Have fun and prosper O’HighTechOne

I have never said I need a rangefinder.  Ever.  In fact, my ability to guestimate yardages is very accurate.  However, I don't hang my hat on that ability....the game is bigger than that for me.  My self worth as a golfer is measured by how I feel butterflies in the morning before my round, how I handle myself on the course and how my friends and I have fun recounting our rounds afterwards.  You think that I've made the game something that is over complicated, but the truth is, the game for me is very simple.

[Cliff Hamm]

Clint

How many holes in one are the result of a GPS/Range Finder/yardage book?

If not required for these holes, why, why do you need them for all the others?

Have fun and prosper O’HighTechOne

Following the all or none theory should scorecards be banned?  They do give the distance to the hole and are especially helpful on par 3's.

[Dan King]

Bill Collins writes:
I guess there's only one way to play the game for you, huh?  I won't judge how you play - that's your business - and you're entitled to do as you wish.  Me too?

I could care less if you use GPS, or whatever technology you want to make the game easier. This thread asked what was the beef with them, and more than likely the group slowing down the game with these devices will be the group ahead of me on the golf course.

BTW, I find it interesting that both of the guys critiquing my view decided to quote just a single line of what I have to say.

Do you think I quoted you out of context, or where you just hoping you could see your own post more than once?

Cheers,
Dan King

One day soon the Gillette company will announce the development of a razor that, thanks to a computer microchip, can actually travel ahead in time and shave beard hairs that don't even exist yet.
 --Dave Barry

[Adam Clayman]

I'm with Hair King.

 Do what ever you want within the boundaries of the rules, decency and equity.

But the beef for this curmudgeon is the correlation between a loss of personal responsibility, awareness levels, and, the innate ability to feel around a golf course using only their minds. (Cadets are part of that too)

There's greater joy and lessons about yourself in figuring circumstances based on experience than hitting a stock whatever iron given to you by a satellite orbiting or any device.

Luddites were worried about employment, we're worried about your ssssooouuuullll.

[Bill Collin]

Bill Collins writes:
I guess there's only one way to play the game for you, huh?  I won't judge how you play - that's your business - and you're entitled to do as you wish.  Me too?

I could care less if you use GPS, or whatever technology you want to make the game easier. This thread asked what was the beef with them, and more than likely the group slowing down the game with these devices will be the group ahead of me on the golf course.

BTW, I find it interesting that both of the guys critiquing my view decided to quote just a single line of what I have to say.

Do you think I quoted you out of context, or where you just hoping you could see your own post more than once?

Cheers,
Dan King

One day soon the Gillette company will announce the development of a razor that, thanks to a computer microchip, can actually travel ahead in time and shave beard hairs that don't even exist yet.
 --Dave Barry

I mentioned it because it was sort of an afterthought and not the main point of what I posted - which was that if I'm in the group in front of you, I'm not holding anyone up - GPS or not.  So yes, I thought it was an odd point to focus on and out of context for that reason.

"So I could see my own post"?  :lol:  Even though I'm new here,  I've got too many posts to count in all kinds of other forums.  The guy with 1400 posts calling the guy with less than 10 an attention whore?  

Pot, meet kettle.

[JWinick]

Melvyn,

You have one foot in another reality.   To you, a range finder is heroin, winning is an addiction that must be controlled so that you can fully appreciate the game in the way that Old Tom Morris intended!

To compare the use of a range finder to the use of steroids is beyond ridiculous.   

If you're object is to play well and put the ball in the hole, than why not use whatever legal tools to help you do that?   

We can do a test.  Let's pick a Pete Dye course unfamiliar to us and we will play a round.  Before each of your shots, you will estimate the yardage.  If you are withing 10 yards, I will give you $50.   

[JWinick]

Dan,

No one is suggesting that we should move the game indoors.   Why have golf shoes, rain gear, game improvement clubs, lob wedges, etc.?  Where do you draw the line?   What is your nirvana state of golf?  Please tell me. 
Do you really think that once we get GPS/rangefinders/etc. approved, that we'll than move the bar so that we're playing indoors?   You are guilty of the fallacy of the slipperly slope. 

Cliff Hamm writes:
Dan...range finders have been approved by both the USGA and the R&A so in this case you can't claim this is purely 'Americanized'.

Americanized golf isn't a game only played in America. It is a game influenced by Americans, using the American concept of equality. It really isn't fair that some people are smarter than others, therefore, especially in sports, we need to remove the whole mental aspect of the game, and make it only physical.

The USGA and R&A have bought into the Americanization of golf. They have given up any right to define the game of golf.

Maybe it is time for those of us that love the game of golf to concede defeat. We can rename our game gowf, and let them play Americanized golf. Instead of beating our heads against the wall every time they mess with our game, we just go off and play our own game and work on convincing them they need to take their game indoors. Is it really fair someone hits an 8-iron to the fourth hole and a breeze throws it a bit off line? Indoors every competitor could face identical breezes on the fourth hole. What could be more fair?

Cheers,
Dan King

Excessive golfing dwarfs the intellect. Nor is this to be wondered at when we consider that the more fatuously vacant the mind is, the better for play. It has been observed that absolute idiots play the steadiest.
  --Sir Walter Simpson  (The Art of Golf)

[Tony Ristola]

Dan writes:
"Of course. God forbid anyone should ever face any sort of doubt while on a golf course."

Doubt is a major enemy to a golfer who's playing to win. There are elements beyond yardage that can and do insert doubt into some player's beans.  Guys just out for a walk hitting shots... that's different. They don't even need to hole out, can pick up half way through a hole, etc.

Yardage aids do what? The provide information. God forbid a golfer has a guide and actually has an idea how far he has to go. And what about golfers with less than perfect vision? Keep them in the fog? Or should they get caddies for all their rounds?

You want to insert a large gob of doubt? Seriously? Get your clubs to turn off the irrigation systems so golfers will have to think about where to land their approach and judge the release. That'll help reintroduce mountains of doubt.

Adam writes:
"But the beef for this curmudgeon is the correlation between a loss of personal responsibility, awareness levels, and, the innate ability to feel around a golf course using only their minds. (Cadets are part of that too)

There's greater joy and lessons about yourself in figuring circumstances based on experience than hitting a stock whatever iron given to you by a satellite orbiting or any device."

Caddies. You've probably played it, but if not... go sans Caddy or advice round the Old Course. In fact, read nary a word and have a trek. 1. You'd be denying yourself the wine of the country. 2. You'd have an arse full of gorse. 3. You wouldn't enjoy the round a tenth as much.

If you are believing there is a greater joy playing without information, then you must also believe there is greater joy playing without a caddy who knows the course cold, and can size up your game after a handful of shots.

Be consistent... call for the elimination of all caddies and caddy programs... for the joy of the game, for promoting "personal responsibility, awareness levels, and, the innate ability to feel around a golf course using only their minds"

[Dan King]

Bill Collins writes:
I mentioned it because it was sort of an afterthought and not the main point of what I posted - which was that if I'm in the group in front of you, I'm not holding anyone up - GPS or not.  So yes, I thought it was an odd point to focus on and out of context for that reason.

I don't care how fast you play. The issue for me isn't making fast golfers faster, but rather making slow golfers faster. GPS makes slow golfers slower. If the USGA had said only Bill Collins could use GPS, then I would not have any problem with that. But that isn't what they ruled. They ruled slow golfers can add yet another gadget that will slow them down even more.

[Rest of your post deleted because I felt like deleting things that had nothing to do with what I'm responding. If you want to see what else Bill posted, it is a couple posts above.]

JWinick writes:
No one is suggesting that we should move the game indoors.

You are wrong. I am suggesting moving your version of golf indoors. It is the only way to reach your ideal of equality in golf.

Do you really think that once we get GPS/rangefinders/etc. approved, that we'll than move the bar so that we're playing indoors?   You are guilty of the fallacy of the slipperly slope.

It is the proponents if GPS that have used the slippery slope. I've read in this thread all the arguments that since we allow certain ways to gain yardage we must allow yet another way to get yardage. And now that GPS is allowed, there will be another gadget that will be justified because GPS was allowed.

The slippery-slope argument you have used is it is just another way to get yardage others already get. The slippery-slope argument has been made by many that pros get all the yardage they want and therefore non-pros should get all the yardage they want. I'm just taking your fair game of golf to its logical conclusion, that if you are for equality in golf then you should move away from the mess that is nature.

Americanized golf is about golf shots. Nature often interferes with golf shots. It makes sense to get away from messy nature, so your version of golf would require no thinking and just be about who can make the shots.

Tony Ristola writes:
Doubt is a major enemy to a golfer who's playing to win.

I can think of no better argument for doing nothing to eliminate doubt from the game.

There are elements beyond yardage that can and do insert doubt into some player's beans.

And what is the next gadget to add to a golfers arsenal to eliminate those doubts?

Yardage aids do what? The provide information. God forbid a golfer has a guide and actually has an idea how far he has to go. And what about golfers with less than perfect vision? Keep them in the fog? Or should they get caddies for all their rounds?

I wouldn't forbid them from hiring a caddy. But remember I'm not in favor of the equitable game you GPS people obsess about. I like the inequality of golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism.
 --Barry Goldwater

[Tony Ristola]

And what is the next gadget to add to a golfers arsenal to eliminate those doubts?

You tell me. What could be next?

I believe we've hit the limit. Yardage guides, sprinkler head markings and GPS.

[Dan King]

Tony Ristola writes:
I believe we've hit the limit. Yardage guides, sprinkler head markings and GPS.

You don't honestly believe that, do you Tony?



Cheers,
Dan King

A new world is not made simply by trying to forget the old. A new world is made with a new spirit, with new values. Our world may have begun that way, but today it is caricature. Our world is a world of things. What we dread most, in the face of the impending debacle, is that we shall be obliged to give up our gewgaws, our gadgets, all the little comforts that have made us so uncomfortable. We are not peaceful souls; we are smug, timid, queasy and quaky.
 --Henry Miller

[Melvyn Morrow]

JWinick

I live in the real world, I just don’t agree that Golfers or any Sportsman needs to use artificial aids. In Athletics using aids like steroids, etc, will result in a life ban, but in Golf the drive to perfection by using aids is acceptable. But IMHO I firmly believe it is not. What is and looks ridiculous is a golfer playing with his toys on the fairway. Yardage aids of all sorts should be banned.

Use your crutches, have fun with your addiction, I don’t need to use aids or yardage books to play my game. It’s like watching an addict taking his fix every time I see someone use a book, range finder or GPS. Next time you play a round actually watch those who use or rely on these artificial aids and tell me they have not become addictive. 

Perhaps as a user of these gadgets/books, you can’t see yourself, but to those who do not want to use them its like being in a room with a smoker –you are being forced to be a passive smoker and are informed of your yardage.

I pity the guy for believing he needs them and for having to stoop so low to play, because he has lost sight of what golf is all about, yet the most frustration part of all this is that he/she actually does not need them to play golf, to have a good round or enjoy themselves.

Winning is great, I certainly do not want to stop any one from winning, but I want them to win by their own ability and that includes working out for themselves the distance and not through aids.

As for a test that should be conducted by you – You play an unfamiliar course first with no aids then again with aids and to make certain repeat the process. After all by playing me will not give you any real comparison.

As for Old Tom Morris – who knows, but yes golf may have had more honesty in those days. Just because you don’t like my opinion there is no need to mention my family.

As I have said I would like to see all distance markers and aids removed from the course and watch players including the Pros having a game based upon their own ability – I think we would all be in for a treat IMHO   

[Tony Ristola]

Dan: Yep. I do.

For golf equipment, balls and implements... no. As the old line goes... I think th-th-th-that's all folks!

JWinick

I live in the real world, I just don’t agree that Golfers or any Sportsman needs to use artificial aids. In Athletics using aids like steroids, etc, will result in a life ban, but in Golf the drive to perfection by using aids is acceptable. But IMHO I firmly believe it is not. What is and looks ridiculous is a golfer playing with his toys on the fairway. Yardage aids of all sorts should be banned.

Use your crutches, have fun with your addiction, I don’t need to use aids or yardage books to play my game. It’s like watching an addict taking his fix every time I see someone use a book, range finder or GPS. Next time you play a round actually watch those who use or rely on these artificial aids and tell me they have not become addictive. 

Perhaps as a user of these gadgets/books, you can’t see yourself, but to those who do not want to use them its like being in a room with a smoker –you are being forced to be a passive smoker and are informed of your yardage.

I pity the guy for believing he needs them and for having to stoop so low to play, because he has lost sight of what golf is all about, yet the most frustration part of all this is that he/she actually does not need them to play golf, to have a good round or enjoy themselves.

Winning is great, I certainly do not want to stop any one from winning, but I want them to win by their own ability and that includes working out for themselves the distance and not through aids.

As for a test that should be conducted by you – You play an unfamiliar course first with no aids then again with aids and to make certain repeat the process. After all by playing me will not give you any real comparison.

As for Old Tom Morris – who knows, but yes golf may have had more honesty in those days. Just because you don’t like my opinion there is no need to mention my family.

As I have said I would like to see all distance markers and aids removed from the course and watch players including the Pros having a game based upon their own ability – I think we would all be in for a treat IMHO   

Oi. Some poor analogies in there. Like the first; comparing aids with steriods.


1. You can't wear swing links on the course.  You can use a caddy, a yardage guide, look at sprinkler heads. The former is an aid, the other preparation.

2. Golfers should be drug tested.

3. Did you realize you are advocating golfers not use caddies?

4. Seems the best golfers in the world require crutches.

5. Passive smoker? Melvyn... I'd love to have a big $ match with you. All I'd have to do is haul out my yardage guide on the first tee and it sounds like you'd be mentally done in.

6. Golfers do work out their own distances. They look at a sprinkler head, they check the yardage guide, and figure in the lie, wind, hole location, hazards and when all the info is factored in... have to hit the shot. It's as if you think golf is played in some kind of vacuum. Distance is but one bit of info. And what about the visually challenged?

7. Take your no aids test to The Old Course. No caddy... no nada. You'd have more fun with a caddy leading, directing and informing... your walking, talking, yardage and all things important guide.

[Paul_Daley]

Hey there ... you guys are really getting into the Detective Gadget stuff. It's compelling prose --- marginally short of abusive --- but all the same, quite futile. The thing is, those who don't believe in artificial golfing aids will never understand the other point of view, just as the "gadget heads" will never understand why, if available, that everyone wouldn't take advantage of free yardage knowledge. It's simply an argument that cannot be won. All the same, nothing has been presented to make me change my stance: yaradge rangefinders are the most absurd golf toys to come along in ages and should be banned for amateurs. They do, however, have a role to play in the professional game during practice.

[JWinick]

"But remember I'm not in favor of the equitable game you GPS people obsess about. I like the inequality of golf."

- Dan King

There's a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcomes.  Rangefinders help provide each golfer an approximate distance from the target.  This information can be obtained through other methods, but it's more timely and less accurate.   Whether its a 20-year member or a guest, each participant has comparable information. 

Inequality through golf ability is fine.   In fact, our crowd is probably more competitive than the romantics who just see golf as a walk outdoors with sticks.  Does chance play a role?  Yes.  Does anyone seek to remove all randomness by moving the game indoors?  No.   

Please define your position.   Rangefinders, GPS, yardage markers are out.  What about caddies giving you distances?  That's allowed or not?   Or is the game of golf now about who is the best guesser of distances?

[Jay Carstens]

Rangefinders seem to be here to stay but the yardage book Funk's caddy had looked more like a geological survey to me.  Was he playing the holes or planning a redesign? 

[Tony Ristola]

Paul and other anti-Toy proponents,

Where do you put caddies in this equation then?
They offer more input than just yardage.

Hypothetical: On a course you haven't played, you're in a match... one guy has a caddy, the other a yardage guide... you're playing to "win"; what's the difference between the two?

Just curious.

[John Foley]

First it was golf carts and now it's anything that tells you how far away you are. A GPS device, a sprinkler head or a frickin post!!

Next thing you know it'll be tee's For heavens sake they used to use sand to prop the ball up. If it was good enough back then it should be good enough now.

I just don't get why people can accpet that one person likes blondes while the other prefers brunettes.

[JWinick]

Exactly.   The people who like to use these devices are not the Trotskyite Luddites who seek to prevent anyone from diverting from the game as it was in 1898.  I suppose we can play in a different foresome, but the Luddities want to ruin it for us.   

First it was golf carts and now it's anything that tells you how far away you are. A GPS device, a sprinkler head or a frickin post!!

Next thing you know it'll be tee's For heavens sake they used to use sand to prop the ball up. If it was good enough back then it should be good enough now.

I just don't get why people can accpet that one person likes blondes while the other prefers brunettes.

[archie_struthers]

 



Being a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to too much technology on the course  ....not big on Rodney Dangerfield golf bags either...I must confess to owning a Bushnell.....however I'm wondering if the binocular feature in the new ones isn't a breach....any rules guru's out there???

[archie_struthers]

I'm not a fan of gimmicks ...or too much technology on the golf course...must confess however t owning a Bushnell  ! LOL

Question for the rules gurus...are binoculars legal on the golf course???

as my Bushnell surely qualifies as binocs..

[Kalen Braley]

   

We can do a test.  Let's pick a Pete Dye course unfamiliar to us and we will play a round.  Before each of your shots, you will estimate the yardage.  If you are withing 10 yards, I will give you $50.   

Where can I sign up for this....sounds like a deal.

[George Pazin]

I move that we ban the word Luddite from the site.

Ludditely yours,

George

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a new toy for you gaj and gajets... http://www.eez-read.com/images.html Nothing would do more to speed up play than fewer putts.  This item should be legal soon as all it does is once again take the place of a professional caddie. 

Direct from the web site:  After just a few holes, golfers will learn to rely on EEZ-READ™ to read their putts and build confidence in their putting. Using EEZ-READ™ will also speed up play as players spend less time circling the hole or crouching behind their ball to read their line.