Which Is Harder to Score On -- Bandon or Pacific?

[Tom_Doak]

Since this topic was distracting from the thread on Bandon Dunes, I thought I would give it a go here.

I'm interested because I have heard both sides.  I've talked to players who shot 15 strokes higher at Pacific Dunes, and I've talked to players who shot many strokes lower at Pacific Dunes.  I've never figured out if it's related to handicap, or conditions, or what.

So, everyone with experience on both courses, please weigh in.  Let me know which you think is the more difficult course, and please include your approximate handicap and the conditions you played in (calm, windy, very windy, rainy).  And I'll try to tally it up in a few days.

[Tim Bert]

I have pretty comprehensive stats from my groups three trips out there. I'll post some details later tonight.

[Jon Nolan]

I've played Pacific five times and Bandon four times.  Always in the winter.  I've played in sunny weather and brutally bad weather.  I've played in 5-10mph winds and I've played in very strong winds.  Each trip I've scored slightly better on Bandon but only by 2-5 strokes.  I'm a 15 index.

Having said all that I'm not sure I know which I think is more difficult.  They're just different.  I approach them in completely different ways mentally.

One point which may or may not be worthy of discussion.  I feel 17 and 18 coming in at Bandon give me a much better shot at par compared to Pacific.  Those two holes at Pacific have hurt me just about every time. 

[hhuffines]

Our group was out there the week of the July 21st-25th and included two 4 handicaps, a 6 and a 2.  As a 4 myself, I had an 80 on each course in what our caddie described as almost perfect conditions with winds of 10-20 mph.  On other rounds at both I carded 84 at BD and 85 at PD while having trouble hitting greens and putting.

Our other 4 and 2 handicap played their best on Bandon with 73 and 75 respectively.  The 4 shot 33 on the Bandon back nine with an eagle and three birdies.  He didnt come close to par on Pacific.

I think Pacific would be more difficult on a regular basis because it is more challenging off the tee and the greens have more "character."  We couldn't understand how the Black tee ratings of 71.9/129 were determined at PD.  Seems much harder than that to me after three plays. 

Cant' wait to get back out there though - Thanks!  Hart Huffines

[Jeff Tang]

I have been to the resort once, and played both Bandon and Pacific twice.  My first 36 I played Bandon Dunes and went 85-79.  The conditions were somewhat blustery, but far from what I understand windy conditions at Bandon can become.

My second 36 were at Pacific and I went 82-82.  The day was perfect, sunny, and calm winds for most of the day until probably the final 9 holes when it started to blow a little.  I played the courses in August.

I am a five handicap and I think Pacific has a few more "gotcha" holes than Bandon, more disaster lurking.  I'd guess this would translate to Pacific being a more difficult course for the higher handicapper, and Bandon more difficult for the low handicapper.  Based on my scores you can see I found both to be equally challenging and it's kind of a tough call for me to call one more difficult than the other.  I will be interested to hear from those that have more playing experience on both courses than just my two rounds each and also thoughts from both the higher and lower handicap players.

[Jason Topp]

South Winds - 5-15 MPH

Pacific - 83 (back), 92(middle) , 82 (back)
Bandon 78 (middle), 78 (back)

8 handicap.  I played better on Bandon but the big difference was around the greens.  The back tees on Bandon were about 6700.

My caddie said his loops consistently have their best scores on Bandon.

[Chip Gaskins]

several times around each.

5-6 shots lower each time on pacific.

75 around pacific off the back to win the medal of the day.

no wind, sunny 75 degrees, sept weather each time.

it all comes down to the wind, period.

pacific is the WAY better course.  pacific and trails are tied for the best. u bandon dunes is a distant distant third on all accounts.

[Jim Tang]

I've been to Bandon twice.  I've got 4 rounds on Bandon and 5 on Pacific.  I played them with an index of about 5.0

I'll say Pacific resists scoring more.  Why?  There is less room off the tee, you must be more exact in usually windy conditions.  The greens are less receptive to shots coming from the rough or poor lines of play.

It seems at Bandon, you've got a lot more room off the tee, and probably more lines of play into the greens.  You can spray it there and still get it around.

[Will MacEwen]

South Winds - 5-15 MPH

Pacific - 83 (back), 92(middle) , 82 (back)
Bandon 78 (middle), 78 (back)

8 handicap.  I played better on Bandon but the big difference was around the greens.  The back tees on Bandon were about 6700.

My caddie said his loops consistently have their best scores on Bandon.

This is roughly similar to profile, and I think the reason is that I can spray it a little around Bandon, and also it is easier to get up and down.  I am also prone to some blow up holes at PD.  More prone, that is - I can have a blowup hole pitching in my yard.

[rchesnut]

I've played each course about 10 times in all kinds of conditions.  I'm an 8 handicap, my average at Bandon is 82, Pacific 85.  I've broken 80 at Bandon several times, never done it at Pacific....and there's no doubt in my mind that Pacific is harder.   

[Lloyd_Cole]

One visit, 2 rounds on each. Pacific was significantly harder for me.
I was about an 8 at the time. Conditions were breezy and sunny. Decent scoring conditions. My major disappointment was that several fairways were lush and overwatered, to my taste.

[Tim Bert]

My group consists of one golfer in the 4-5 handicap range, and three golfers that have probably ranged from 8-14 while we were on our various trips out there.  We have played both courses in relatively calm and extremely windy conditions.  No rain.  Always in the summer.  If anything, I'd say over the course of our three trips the wind has been slightly tougher at Bandon Dunes because I recall the windiest round being there, and I recal the calmest round being at Pacific early one morning.

Overall average group score at Bandon Dunes (21 rounds): 90.29

Overall average group score at Pacific Dunes (30 rounds): 91.53

So, Pacific Dunes play slightly tougher to par (+20.53) vs. Bandon Dunes (+18.29) for our group over a reasonable sample size.

On our first trip, the two course played almost identical in average strokes.  The 2nd trip out there, Bandon played 3 strokes easier.  The 3rd trip out, we managed an average under 90 for both courses and Bandon played a little less than a stroke easier.

Our consolidated best ball is 4 strokes better at Bandon (59) than at Pacific (63) in fewer rounds.  We've birdied every hole but 6,7,12, 16,17, and 18 at Bandon.  We've put up an eagle on #9.  At Pacific we have failed to birdie 1-4 and 7,8 as a group on the front nine.  On the back nine, we are missing 11,13,16, and 17.  

Our consolidated worst ball is 3 strokes worse at Bandon than at Pacific.  At Bandon, the only hole where we have never posted a score worse than 5 is #6.  We have posted 10 or worse at 5,8, and 18.  At Pacific, the only hole where no one has made worse than 5 is #10.  We have posted at least one score of 10 or worse at #4 and #18.  

Individual results:
Golfer #1 (Lowest handicapper):   Pacific (83.33) vs. Bandon (84.25.)  

This includes two rounds of 79 at Bandon and one at Pacific.  He has failed to break 90 once on each course.  His "best ball" 18 and "worst ball" 18 is within one stroke at each course, so there isn't a difference in tendancy to birdie or blow up on a larger number of holes at one course vs. the other.

Golfer #2: Pacific (94.33) vs. Bandon (87.75)

He has never broken 90 at Pacific Dunes, and he has broken 90 3 of 4 tries at Bandon (including an 80.)  His best ball is within one stroke on either course, but his worst ball is 20 strokes higher at Pacific Dunes.  He has only made worse than 7 on one hole at Bandon, and he has done it on 5 different holes at Pacific.  

Golfer #3 (Alan Gard): Pacific (92.67) vs. Bandon (94.57)

Alan is the only one of us that tends to be much more volatile on a hole-by-hole basis at Bandon.  His best score at Pacific is 86.  He is the only one in our group that hasn't broken 90 at Bandon.  Despite his scoring average difference, Alan's best ball at Bandon is 3 shots better than at Pacific (despite playing fewer rounds.)  He is more likely to birdie holes at Bandon, but he's also a good bet to throw up a big number somewhere along the way (#5 comes to mind - in 7 rounds he has made double bogey or worse 6 times here.)

Golfer #4 (me): Pacific (94.00) vs. Bandon (92.33)

I have never broken 90 at Pacific Dunes (despite numerous personal sob stories where I blew it due to one or two particular hole.)  I've broken 90 twice at Bandon (86 is my best score), and I shot 90 on the number a third time in probably the most difficult wind conditions we played at either course.  Bandon Dunes remains the only course I've ever played - EVER - where I hit both par 5s on the same side in 2 shots during the same round (#3 and #9.)  I tend to make more pars at Pacific than I do at Bandon, but I mix in more birdies at Bandon and more blow-ups at Pacific Dunes.  

[Les Cordes]

no question...bandon is easier......"greens and fairways.."

[Andrew Summerell]

I've only played both courses once each.

Both days were only about a 1 club breeze.

I was playing off an 8 handicap at the time.

I found PD more difficult than BD. For me it was more to do with shots around the greens. I found PD required more imagination around the greens & I tended to waste shots due to not chipping or pitching close enough & leaving myself longer, more difficult par saving putts.

From memory I played exactly to my handicap at BD, which I was happy with for a first time visit & shot 13 over at PD. So for me it was a 5 shot difference.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Tom,

10.5 index, I once made birdie on the first three holes at Bandon (no wind), then shot 36 on the front nine--which I don't think I could ever hope to replicate at Pacific, wind or no.  The back nine I think has all the difficulty at Bandon.  On that day the wind came up and I went 36-45.

At Pacific you can make bigger numbers repetitively if you get sloppy, without ever losing a ball.  The greens and bunkers are more difficult generally, and then you have holes like 6 where you can put your tee shot in decent position and still make 6 easily if the second shot is even slightly mis-played. 

I think Pacific is harder to score on--but I did watch my scratch-player brother on his first time around shoot 71 from the green tees with 5 birdies.
He was troubled by #5, #14, and #17 at Bandon didn't score nearly as well at Bandon on that trip.

[cary lichtenstein]

Pacific plays a few shots easier than Bandon Dunes. The greens allow for more creative shots and better scoring. Last trip I shot 71/74 at PD, 75/77 at Bandon Dunes. Windy but ideal scoring conditions. 6 Handicap

[John Kirk]

Nice scores, Cary.

I've played both Bandon and Pacific about 20 times, as I live in the Portland area.  I haven't played them much lately, but will start heading down there more often when Old Macdonald is ready.

I haven't kept good stats.  However, once I got to know the courses, I felt that Bandon was 2-3 shots easier, using the current setup for the green and black tees at each course.  Bandon is set up around 6500-6700 yards on most play days, and could be stretched out a few hundred yards if desired.

During the recent British Open, the commentators were describing the challenge of Royal Birkdale as a puzzle to figure out, or decode.  This is a reasonable way to describe my experiences at Bandon at Pacific.  Once I had figured out a strategy to attack the two courses, I felt that it is easier to execute a plan of attack at Bandon, and I could reliably shoot a pretty good number there.  The penalty for a poor shot at Pacific tends to be more severe, and in some instances, Pacific requires a more exacting shot.

Bandon Dunes is so large and forgiving that it becomes a good choice on very windy days.  I enjoy Pacific Dunes more, but when Bandon first opened I thought it was the greatest thing ever.

Addendum:  My handicap fluctuates between 0 and 4.

[rjsimper]

Played each course 7-8 times.  Best score is 74 from the tips at BD, and 80 from the greens at Pac Dunes.  My worst score is 84 at BD from the tips, and my worst score is 93 from the green at Pac.  Pac is definitely harder for me to score on.

[John Handley]

I've played both Pacific and Bandon at least 12 times and without a doubt, I believe Bandon is easier to score on for me personally.  In May, I had a great day with 76 at Pacific in the morning and 74 on Bandon in the afternoon.  I think for me, the main difference are the greens.  In both putting and chipping, the greens at Pacific offer a sterner challenge.  That and probably the freaking 4th and 8th holes.  I was 2 under going into 4 and I should just put double bogey on my card every time.  Same thing with 8. 

All in all they are both terrific courses and I love playing them.  I'd say I shoot 2-4 strokes better at Bandon.

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting ... just when there starts to be a consensus, Cary comes along and messes it up.  Keep the comments coming, people.

It should be noted that Bandon Dunes was designed with six sets of tees and the two back sets are seldom used anymore ... so for normal play the back set is only slightly longer than Pacific Dunes, when in fact Bandon was designed to be 600 yards longer!  If you were playing Bandon Dunes from 7300 yards I don't think anyone would think it was the easier of the two.  And, of course, all of the approach shots were designed to be fairly forgiving because David expected them to be much longer.

[Sean Leary]

As people have said, Pacific has more card wrecking holes. I wonder if everybodys scores here are their real scores, or are the xing out on a few and using esc as they figure out their scores. It also seems like pacific often moved the tees way up on certain holes that would make a big difference. 1, for example, can be a monster in the summer from the back tees.

I can't score on either cuz I can't make any putts on those greens, especially now with the increase in poa.

[mitch jean]

This is an interesting question.  I have been to the resort twice, both times in early July, with dry weather and strong summer winds.  I have played Pacific a couple of times more than Bandon.  My index the first trip was about 10.5, the second about 7.5.  I have made a number of birdies on Pacific, including multiple birdies in a couple of rounds.  I have had more blow up holes on Pacific, however.  My scoring, while not great, has been more even on Bandon.  It seems to me the more contoured greens on Pacific present more opportunities to get the ball close to the hole on approach shots than at Bandon (maybe that's a matter of luck?!).

[Jim Colton]

Tom,

  I shot 78 at Pacific under benign AM conditions (5 birdies), 84 the next day under extremely windy PM conditions.  I shot 85 at Bandon under benign conditions and 83 under slightly tougher conditions.

[Mike Benham]

Sean's comments are closer to the real question.

Pacific has more risk / reward holes that give you the opportunity, or the perception of opportunity, to score. 

However, the beauty of the design is that many can't enjoy the reward at every chance.

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I guess I'll be the higher handicap who responds.  My handicap card says I'm a 9, although that's somewhat dubious right now.  I've played Bandon and Pacific about 8 times each in a variety of conditions--1-2 club wind, 3-4 club wind and downpouring rain.  I've usually played the black tees in the morning and the green tees in the afternoon, except during the rain, when it was all greens. 

My average scores are in the 83-85 range for Pacific and 85-87 range for Bandon.  I really can't explain why because Bandon seems like it should be more forgiving.  My own theory is that Pacific may force me to concentrate more on where to place the ball and that may have a positive effect on me.  Despite the averages, I do believe my highest score was on Pacific.