Prairie Club Short Course "Horse" Pix Posted

[Adam Clayman]

Geoff has graciously posted some construction pix of the course he and Gil are building.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/prairie-club/

[Jimmy Muratt]

Adam,

Thanks for posting the link.  What a great setting and property for a short course.  The quality of that site has to be up there with any that a par 3 course has been built on. 

I'm anxious to see what Graham Marsh and Tom Lehman do with the big courses.  I remember the routing that Gil had done utilizing the canyon rim and it was going to be really special.  I admit that I was disappointed to hear he was no longer  going to do it. 

[David Stamm]

I'm anxious to see what Graham Marsh and Tom Lehman do with the big courses.  I remember the routing that Gil had done utilizing the canyon rim and it was going to be really special.  I admit that I was disappointed to hear he was no longer  going to do it. 

I'll second the disappointment. Can someone explain to me how Lehman and Chris Brands got the "big" course and Hanse and Shack got the par 3? And please don't tell me because Lehman has the "name", it's not like we are talking Jack or Arnie.

[RJ_Daley]

Interesting that the photo of the 4th seems to be using the same green site as the previous full size routing used.  So, I guess the routings of the Lehman and Marsh courses are going to be quite different from Gil's original ideas. 

I think the issue with using Marsh is simply Mark Ammundson's very close personal friendship with Graham.  I don't think it is a slight to Gil at all.  And, Lehman does have a fan base following in that region.

While I'm rooting for Gil and Geoff to have a great success, the new organization with new management has a bigger plan with both courses and the short course.  It is a big undertaking with a lot of investment.  I have no doubt that Marsh and Lehman will also do good jobs and find and present a great couple of courses.  I don't see any competent architect course designer really screwing that great land up.  And, Marsh and Lehmann show enough reverence and understanding of great linksland to put their best efforts into it with the knowledge needed to present authentic links-prairie golf.  It is an exciting prospect that I'll be anxious to see when they are done.  I'd even like to see it now in the midst of construction.

[Adam Clayman]

Had the distinct pleasure of touring all 46 holes today.

Starting with the Horse, I was giddy seeing this sophisticated design concept implemented. It was different than I expected because of the sporadic placement of native areas. Overall, I just can't wait to tee it up it looked so cool.

Dick, I think you may be correct about one of the originally designed greens being part of the Horse. It's the only part of the project that occupies any of the ground Gil, Jim and Geoff were going to use. (and still may)

The Marsh course splits it's time going in, out and back into the treed areas near the canyon walls, yet, still has an intimate feeling. A "Pine valley" look (scrub area carries) re-occurs on a few hole's tee shots, but not too many to make it repetitive. The Pine valley look is best described by what Tom Fazio did at World Woods Pine Barrens to make it feel like the Jersey layout. Ample width occasionally pinched gives this course a straight away feel utilizing the pre-exsiting ground eloquently. The greens are varied with some Potato chips and some tilted plates. Great variety and I suspect will be the majorities favorite. (Yes, because of the trees)

The Lehman course may rival Old Mac for scale. This course is like Sting's theory on rock and roll. Grab'em with the first note. Massive cants and rolls dominate the landscape complete with center line bunkers of varying size and shape. The greens are massive with the smallest being equal in size to Ballyneal's largest. 13k sq/ft I suspect the Par 3's might be the real highlight for a player of my caliber, while the par 5's will really get the juices flowing for the adrenaline junkies. Knowing how the wind can change in this region, a few days stay should yield many course faces.

Well, those are all first impressions and I hope to see the course open next year with great enthusiasm. The region really is becoming a fascinating differential in how minds create different products with somewhat similar mediums.  I don't know how much answer I can give to questions but if you have any I'm willing to give it a try.

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for the report Adam.  I can't wait to see it for myself next year.  What type(s) of grasses are being used on the courses?

[Jason Hines]

Adam,
Besides the trees on the Marsh course, what native or natural aspects of the land itself come into play on the courses?  For example, does the Dunes course utilize the sandy soil and natural bunkering?  Are there rocky aspects of the Pines course due to the proximity of the canyon?
Can you tell distinct design differences between the course designers?  Will the Twins take the Yankees?  Sorry about the last one, I was on a roll with the questions.

[Tim Bert]

The greens are massive with the smallest being equal in size to Ballyneal's largest.

No exaggeration there?  Which greens are the largest at Ballyneal?  I think of 13 and 15 as pretty massive.

Do you know the total acreage of the greens as it compares to the 6.5 being cited at Old Mac?

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm anxious to see what Graham Marsh and Tom Lehman do with the big courses.  I remember the routing that Gil had done utilizing the canyon rim and it was going to be really special.  I admit that I was disappointed to hear he was no longer  going to do it. 

I'll second the disappointment. Can someone explain to me how Lehman and Chris Brands got the "big" course and Hanse and Shack got the par 3? And please don't tell me because Lehman has the "name", it's not like we are talking Jack or Arnie.

According to an inside source (I won't put him on the spot), a strong Christian kinship developed between the owner/developer and the design teams he eventually went with for the full-length courses, but the owner decided to allow Hanse and Shack to do the short course in part out of "guilt (or whatever you want to call it)" -- I suspect their stellar, abandoned routing also played a role. Hopefully The Horse will set a new standard for future developments.

[Rob Rigg]

I'm anxious to see what Graham Marsh and Tom Lehman do with the big courses.  I remember the routing that Gil had done utilizing the canyon rim and it was going to be really special.  I admit that I was disappointed to hear he was no longer  going to do it. 

I'll second the disappointment. Can someone explain to me how Lehman and Chris Brands got the "big" course and Hanse and Shack got the par 3? And please don't tell me because Lehman has the "name", it's not like we are talking Jack or Arnie.

According to an inside source (I won't put him on the spot), a strong Christian kinship developed between the owner/developer and the design teams he eventually went with for the full-length courses, but the owner decided to allow Hanse and Shack to do the short course in part out of "guilt (or whatever you want to call it)" -- I suspect their stellar, abandoned routing also played a role. Hopefully The Horse will set a new standard for future developments.

Both of the full length layouts look great in the photos but I was also disappointed that Gil did not get to route a full eighteen. While the Horse Course will be "cool" without a doubt, it would have been great to see what Gil and team could have done with a large canvas.

Let's be honest, most of your time at Prarie club will be spent on the big courses, regardless of how fun the Horse Course plays.

Adam - Any specific thoughts on PC versus its well respected neighbors? I know that it is early days.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

When does the inaugural "North Star"/"Prairie"/"Midwest" Cup happen at the Prairie Club? Because I'm ready to sign up right now.

I'm thinking something like...

2010 Prairie Club - Nebraska
2011 Giant's Ridge - Minnesota
2012 Lawsonia/Erin Hills - Wisconsin

[Adam Clayman]

The two big courses are very distinct. The Lehman has more of blowout look. While Marsh's has a bit more manicured look. They both have internal vegitation. But the looks are even more distinguished due to the characteristics of the ground. Many holes on both courses look like they just leveled some teeing grounds turned over the loam and grew grass. There are five types of fescue with some colonial bent. 

[Adam Clayman]

The greens are massive with the smallest being equal in size to Ballyneal's largest.

No exaggeration there?  Which greens are the largest at Ballyneal?  I think of 13 and 15 as pretty massive.

Do you know the total acreage of the greens as it compares to the 6.5 being cited at Old Mac?

Tim, sorry can't give acreage. BN' biggest is 13 @13k ft. Or so I've been told. No exagg.


Rob Rigg, Without having played, I can not give an accurate analysis.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
 
Do you think Tom Lehman's efforts at PC are enough to silence his critics?

[Mike Hendren]

I'll second the disappointment. Can someone explain to me how Lehman and Chris Brands got the "big" course and Hanse and Shack got the par 3? And please don't tell me because Lehman has the "name", it's not like we are talking Jack or Arnie.

What precisely are Shackleford's credentials?

Mike

[Eric Smith]

There are five types of fescue with some colonial bent.  

Thanks Adam.  I also read in the latest newsletter today where the different types of grasses used on the courses are described:

In the fairways at The Prairie Club, we are using a group of fescues: Chewings Fescue, Sheep Fescue, Hard Fescue, Fine Fescue along with a few others. Fescue grass is mainly found on the coasts of the United States and Britain - but we believe gets to the roots of how the game should be played. If it is good enough for St. Andrews, it will work out just fine for The Prairie Club. In addition, fescue, because of its low need for water, is now recognized as a "green" choice in the golf community. Finally, we added an old strain of Bent Grass to the fairways to help with traffic tolerance and the harsh winters of the Nebraska prairie.

As for the greens, we are using a blend of T-1 bentgrass and another bentgrass. This is the newest generation of creeping bentgrass that is head and shoulders above previous strains. The grass has all of the good qualities (i.e. tenacious ground cover, rich green color, poa annua resistant) in addition to being very low maintenance. This week, the mower was lowered to .130 inches on the greens, and we should be down to .125 in another week. "Our greens are running a 10 on the stimpmeter now, and we're nine months away from opening day," said Ross Buckendahl, The Prairie Club's Golf Course Superintendent. "This grass is incredible. It's like it's on steroids, but there are no steroids".

Finally, I want to share with you what's going on underneath the grass. I'm talking about the PH in the soil. In a nutshell, if you want ideal growing conditions, the soil should probably be slightly basic. You would think that's what we want at The Prairie Club. But the problem is, EVERYTHING will grow in those conditions - including pesky weeds. So we work really hard to keep our soil slightly acidic. That lets the fescue flourish, while the weeds have a tougher time making a go of it. Because let's face it, no one has ever said, "Boy, I really like this crabgrass lie."

Are having bentgrass greens rather than fescue a distinct difference from the other prairie links courses in the region?

btw...look at these recent pics from the Prairie Club, wowza! http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=107755661228

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Adam,
Thanks for the update, I haven't been out to Prairie Club since we were building the Horse Course last summer. It's exciting to hear you enjoyed everything you saw. I can certainly see what you mean about the small areas of native that we left, but I do think that ultimately the H-O-R-S-E concept will have plenty of room to play itself out (that is, with the honorree on the tee getting to pick where to play from). A couple of holes won't give too many options for multiple teeing grounds just because of space limitations (the little 4th and 5th by the canyon being the most obvious). But depending on how much play is out there, we think there are some really wild and weird spots to tee off from, only limited by one's imagination. Either way, hopefully the courses becomes a fun way to either warm up for your rounds or to wind down in the late evening.

Kyle,
The truth is, our original routing is not entirely on the land Paul Schock purchased and that made it tough to go forward with that version of the Prairie Club. The Horse Course is, however, on the 18th hole of that old routing so it would not be part of that proposed course now unless the Horse Course was bulldozed. It was a pretty wild finishing hole, but from what I'm hearing in terms of early reviews about the Horse, the little course is not going anywhere.  And if/when the remaining land that was part of the original design is acquired, there are plenty more wild and maybe even better holes along the canyon rim to replace it, so I'm not too worried about that should we ever get the privilege of building the course. It's just an incredible property.

[Tony Weiler]

Someone mentioned Mark Ammundson above.  The same Mark from Sutton Bay?  I'm assuming so with the Marsh connection.  Is he running/managing Prairie Club, too? 

[Bill_McBride]

For those of who are Nebraska geography challenged    where is the Prairie Club in relation to Sand Hills, Wild Horse and Ballyneal?  Driving distance?

Thanks!

[George Pazin]

What are the slope and course rating from the tippy tips? Yardage? Scorecard?

 

Thanks for the posts.

What precisely are Shackleford's credentials?

Mike

The urge to play foil notwithstanding, Geoff's words and deeds speak for themselves.

[Mike Hendren]

George,  I too like Geoff's writing and agree that his "words" speak for themselves, but what "deeds" are you referring to?  I have no reason to doubt they exist - I'd just like to know what they are.  All I know about his involvement at Rustic Canyon is that someone made the comment to me at Kings Putter II that Gil "let" Geoff design the 10th green. I didn't put too much credence in that statement, though it came from someone I'd considerable reputable.

No harm intended, honestly.

Mike   

[Adam Clayman]

Bill, The PC is located 17 mi. SW of Valentine Ne. along hwy #97. Hwy 97 is the same hwy Sand Hills is on, only further north about an hour drive time. I say about because the road is desolate and depending on your proclivity for speed will determine your time. Other landmarks are the Merrit Dam. The course is 14 miles northeast of Merrit. From my house it took about 2.5 hours. It takes me about 1hr 45min to get to SH. I live 1;15 from Wild horse and 1;15 from Ballyneal. So, to sum up, it's just down the road a piece.   Aprox. 2 hours north of North Platte. On another thread there was a suggestion to fly into some south dakota city, but as I recall, it's sixes. Maybe if Ron Farris sees this he can chime in. Afterall he is the real deal local boy.

Eric,
Just a comment about the Super Ross. He showed me around the Dunes course (Lehman). After spending most of his career in PHX he is now back home in Nebraska. He was genuinely humble about his good fortune getting to work back in Ne. but also, because of Paul Shock and his attitude towards all the people involved. Ross described an almost family like atmosphere and was really impressed with Paul's willingness to keep initiation and dues at a reasonable level to allow more people to experience what is truly a very unique site.  The project Manager, Tyler, showed me around The Pines course (Marsh) and was a guy who should be a member of this forum. He's worked for nearly every one and I felt like I could've talked GCA with him for days.

Greoff, Since I could only visualize the concept before hand, I was surprised by the size and scale. Could you share how much acreage the HORSE covers? Looked about 5, to me. But I'm not good at that figuring. Since I have not seen it could you compare and contrast the HORSE with the Sheep Ranch?

Michael, I'm not sure about it, but, I get the feeling that these in the dirt designs require a team effort and attitude. Obviously Gil and Jim value Geoff's involvement. His historical understanding of the core principles in design are what I suspect keep him in the game. Again, all speculation on my part since I've never met the man. Wasn't there anther course either in SoCal or Mexico where Geoff was involved?

[Pete Lavallee]

... but what "deeds" are you referring to?  I have no reason to doubt they exist - I'd just like to know what they are.  All I know about his involvement at Rustic Canyon is that someone made the comment to me at Kings Putter II that Gil "let" Geoff design the 10th green. I didn't put too much credence in that statement, though it came from someone I'd considerable reputable.

No harm intended, honestly.

Mike  

Surely you've heard of Geoff's first solo effort the Sinaloa 9 hole course in picturesque downtown Simi Valley. Managed by a former UCLA Bruin and LA Laker color commentator; it's a wonder anyone could drag themselves away to play nearby Rustic Canyon. The layout mimicks C B Macdonald's penchant for tribute holes with such greats as: Punch Bowl, 10th @ Riviera, Redan, Mound, 12th @ Augusta, Eden, Hillside, 10th @ Winged Foot and last but not least Duck's Delight; which was I believe a true original concept. Why the overall concept was so inspired that none other than master shaper Jeff Bradley begged to be a member of the construction team.

Really Mike you need to do a little more "heavy lifting" before casting such ruinous accusations.

[Mike Hendren]

Pete, I am duly chastized.  While I have had the pleasure of dining and fellowship in the clubhouse of the Simi Valley gem, I have not golfed my ball across its holes.  Most memorable is the photograph hanging on the wall depicting Lew Alcindor blocking/palming a shot one-handed well above the rim.    

Seriously however, I regret the tenor of my original post and would like to hear more about Geoff's involvement with Gil Hanse, whose work I am quite fond of.  I must confess to being slightly bitter today as last evening I declined a very gracious invitation to play Prairie Dunes next weekend.

Geoff,  I apologize.

Mike

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Adam,
I'm guessing you were shocked by the intimacy of the Horse Course? Totally understandable! I don't know the acreage but I'm going to guess 5-6. While I think the concept could be great fun and even more option-filled on a slightly larger scale, we decided to use the best features and keep it intimate. There will definitely be a lot of spectating other groups out there and it probably will get a bit loud out there at times, but I think the intimacy of it will be what makes it great fun. At least I hope.

I haven't seen the Sheep Ranch so I can't compare the two.