Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick

[TEPaul]

"TE
That is outrageous....he showed up on the wrong day. Who was that?"

You got me, it must have been somebody else, right?   




"You should have been there, you might have learned something."

You really don't need to worry about me and GCGC Tom. Maybe you were there for a couple of hours or whatever and I'm glad you had such a great time. I grew up about twenty miles from the course, I've been there plenty, I know Patrick real well and it's pretty hard to find someone who knows more about the history of that architecture even if you might think you do after a few hours. They showed you some photos too? Wow, isn't that something. And you actually had lunch there? That's incredible. It's pretty hard to not get to know the entire history of a course if you actually eat lunch there I guess!

Get to know Mel Lucas and you might really learn something about GCGC.

We had the Lesley Cup there in 2005 to go back there for the 100th anniversary of the Cup that began play there in 1905. I don't think you need to concern yourself with what I know or don't know about the place. But if you think you have it all figured out after a few hours, hey, isn't that wonderful even if it was on the wrong day or whatever.

But if you're so oblivious you didn't even realize that I guess that's cool too. What the hell, if you're really having fun what difference does a day make? 

[DMoriarty]

Wayne,

I stand by everything I said in the post above.   It is accurate as far as I know, and you have written nothing that changes any of it.   All of the listed misrepresentations and omissions were made on the website.   I havent seen your book.  You posted about leaving important M&W material out of early version.  The misrepresentions regarding the sketches?  The website.  It is all from the website.   

As for the gossip you have spread about Tom MacWood, you miss the point entirely.  I don't give a damn what you think happened at Garden City.  It is none of my business and none of your business.    Besides, you weren't even there.    But most importantly, using this type of gossip to try and trash someone's reputation on this website is beyond low, it is downright despicable.  You can't win an argument on the merits so you try to trash the guys reputation on a public website?   What kind of a man are you?

Same goes for the garbage you spread about my supposed snail's pace of play and my clogging up the course all day.  What kind of a man spreads nasty rumors about someone just because of some unrelated disagreement?  And you readily admit trying to trash my reputation, but call me a liar because I understate how hard you worked  at trashing my reputation?   Classy.

As for the "gentleman" who supposedly stands by the story, I'd be glad to politely discuss it with him.   But given that he is yet another of your mystery sources, I don't have that opportunity, do I?   Wayne Morrison making a claim he is unwilling to back up?  Gee, what a surprise.   

Not that it is any of your business, but anyone who has walked with me regularly on any golf course would find your gossip about my snail's pace of play absolutely preposterous.   I may not be good, but I am by no means slow.  And I would just as soon pick up my ball on every hole before I would clog up a course at which I was a guest.    For you to claim otherwise based on third-hand gossip is absolutely outrageous.
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But you pretty much said it all when you justify spreading false and malicious gossip about me and MacWood based on your conclusion that we do not deserve your respect or concern:  "You merit no respect or concern."     

So your personal code of behavior is admittedly subjective and circumstantial, and therefore entirely hypocritical.  I guess that explains why many still think so highly of you.   They just haven't had occasion to disagree with you yet. 

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TEPaul,   As much has you wrote about that correspondence over the years, and you hadn't bothered to read it?  I told you guys long ago that you could figure out Wilson's whereabouts by those letters.  If you waited until the eve of my essay to even look at them then my comments about your mishandling of the source material applies still.  What kind of an expert has this info and doesn't bother to look at it? 

As for your going into this gossipy garbage about MacWood, see my comments above.

[wsmorrison]

Wrong again, Moriarty. 

As for my comment  "you merit no respect and concern," that was directed at you alone.  Why did you falsely include Tom MacWood in that characterization?  I know it is convenient and compelling, but it simply isn't true.  You lie, twist and scheme.  Your posts are replete with examples such as this.  Your sense of reality is alarmingly distorted.  I have a pretty high regard for Tom MacWood on most matters.  I have none for you. 

[DMoriarty]

Wrong again, Moriarty. 

As for my comment  "you merit no respect and concern," that was directed at you alone.  Why did you falsely include Tom MacWood in that characterization?  I know it is convenient and compelling, but it simply isn't true.  You lie, twist and scheme.  Your posts are replete with examples such as this.  Your sense of reality is alarmingly distorted.  I have a pretty high regard for Tom MacWood on most matters.  I have none for you. 

Wayne,

You have a very odd notion of what constitutes a "lie" and have always been played pretty fast and loose with the term.   Remember when you called me a liar for correctly pointing out to you that the early measure of the 10th hole at Merion was exaggerated by 20 or 30 yards?   I thought that was bizarre at the time, but now I realize that you throw the word around so much that I am starting to wonder whether you even grasp the concept.  For example, here you say that I "lie, twist and scheme" but in looking back at the quote, the more reasonable explanation is that you are not very careful with your use of the word "you" which can be second person singular or plural.

But never mind.  You again  entirely missed the point which is the same whether you were referring to me, Wayne, or both of us.

But I must ask, if you have such a high regard for Tom MacWood then why would you stoop to trying to malign his reputation and character by passing on petty second hand gossip about him?   

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,   As much has you wrote about that correspondence over the years, and you hadn't bothered to read it?  I told you guys long ago that you could figure out Wilson's whereabouts by those letters.  If you waited until the eve of my essay to even look at them then my comments about your mishandling of the source material applies still.  What kind of an expert has this info and doesn't bother to look at it?"


For the record, Wayne and my collection of the so-called "Wilson/Piper/Oakley Agronomy Letters" that spanned from 1911 until 1925 (for Hugh Wilson) and beyond for Alan Wilson, the above statement is not correct at all.

Wayne and I went through the entire collection of those Wilsons to Piper and Oakley letters about five years ago scanning through about 2,000 letters during an entire day. The only ones we copied at the Green Section of the USGA in Far Hills were the ones pertaining to William Flynn since he was all we were researching and writing about then. I would estimate that we copied about 15% of the total of approximately 2,000 letters.

This year, probably in May, during the early discussions of Merion and Wilson and MacDonald/Whigam involving this essay of Mr. Moriarty's entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion" I went back to the USGA at Far Hills and went through ALL the agronomy letters from the years 1911 and 1912. I did this to try to create a time line on Hugh Wilson's whereabouts in the years 1911 and 1912. That is when I found the letter from the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association's Richard Francis (one of the members of Hugh Wilson's committee that designed and built Merion East) dated in late March or early April to the US Dept of Agriculture's Russell Oakley explaining to Oakley that Hugh Wilson had taken "a hurried trip abroad'. At that point Hugh Wilson had a correspondence of approximately 150 letters with Oakley.

This letter went beyond the ship manifest that Mr Moriarty found for a Wilson trip abroad in 1912 and this letter corroborated that ship manifest listing of a Hugh Wilson and proved Merion's Hugh Wilson was indeed abroad at that time.

Neither Wayne nor I had that particular letter in our possession in the previous five years so it wasn't a matter of not reading it, we did not have it. I also found a 1912 letter in those files from C.B. Macdonald to Hugh Wilson discussing fertilizer application on putting greens. As far as we can tell that was the only other known collaboration (1912) between Macdonald and Merion following his second and last visit to Ardmore on April 6, 1911 which is confirmed by MCC board meeting minutes.

Again, the above statement is incorrect. It is not that we did not read a letter we had for some years, it was simply that we never had it until the discussion on Merion began around April of this year.

[DMoriarty]

As I said . . . as much has you pontificated about that correspondence over the years, you hadn't bothered to read it?  I told you guys long ago that you could figure out Wilson's whereabouts by those letters.  If you waited until the eve of my essay to look closely at them then my comments about your mishandling of the source material apply doubly.  You knew what a terrific source they were, yet you never bothered to give it a close look?  Unbelievable

And while you are backtracking, perhaps you two can explain why the Sayres Scrapbook pages dealing with Merion East's creation sat for five years untouched, right under your noses?   

TEPaul didn't you write something for the GAP and for the USGA on Merion?   And didn't Wayne write something like 140 pages on Merion in his Tome, including coverage of the origins of the East Course?   And you referenced a 80 page document that Wayne had written for the USGA on early Merion didn't you?    Ever think research might have helped?

I know. I know.   You guys only cared about Flynn.   But if this is the case, then why have you been pretending to be experts on early Merion for the past decade?   And the book covers the origins of the course, doesn't it?   You included it the book but didn't bother to research it?  Yikes.

Look guys, it was never my intention to rub your noses in your the past piles of [Merion research and analysis.]  I tried to let bygones be and work with Wayne to put the final few pieces in place.   But now, given your continued unsubstantiated attacks on my research and analysis, I think it is important that we establish a clear baseline,  for the sake of comparison.  And you guys were the self proclaimed experts, so you are it.

I will gladly compare my methodology, research, and analysis a with anything you two have ever written, or with any other scholarship on the origins of Merion East.    This includes your super secret report, which must be largely derivative else almost entirely erroneous.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

For gods sake man, please step away from the computer.

Your last post was the most self-indulgent, self-congratulatory, and self-delusional thing I've ever seen written here.

What the hell exactly do you think you've contributed or proved with your paper?   And, humorously enough, you claim you wrote it "for the good of golf".

Man, don't you have young kids or something you should be playing with?   

I think everyone should drop this crap, and I've tried to lighten the tone here hoping that some others would realize that the 5 minutes HH Barker spent on looking at the property and the 2 days CB Macdonald spent with the Merion Committee are but about .00001% of the collective time and credit and argumentative nonsense that we've all been engaged in  for the past six months, but if you can't realize that even those guys would be laughing at us by now you need some serious help.   

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

I am not the least bit upset, and my family is fast asleep.   In fact it is kind of liberating to actually speaking my mind about these two.   

These guys want to continue to rip my research and analysis without substantiation, then we should establish a baseline for comparison's sake.   Their past work on Merion may be a very low baseline, but it is all we got.

And Mike, do me a favor and do not talk about my private life on this website.  It's really none of your business. Thanks.

[TEPaul]

The subject of this thread is: "Herbert Leeds and what makes an architect tick."


Having just done 37 straight hours of "independent" and deep expert research I believe I have conclusively determined what it was that made Herbert Leeds tick. It was a rather large KEY that his friend Parker inserted into a keyhole located just above Herb's tailbone and with which he wound Herb up. A "Full-Wind" apparently kept Herbert Carey Leeds whirling and ticking for up to eight straight days.

By the way, the Leed's "Key" was found last week while I was there in a dusty old wooden box in the eaves of Myopia's old Court Tennis Court (that is now used as part of the maintenance facility). In the same box we also discovered a lock of hair that was labeled as belonging to Georgina Campbell, Willie Campbell's fascinating wife. It may take up to a week for me to determine what this means regarding the architecture of Myopia Hunt Club.

I am not sure yet but I suspect Georgina Campbell's roll and significance in the history of American golf AND ARCHITECTURE has been both misunderstood and seriously minimized. I mean to do something to rehabilitate her reputation and make this wrong right after all these years.

You all can expect a really in-depth and independently researched "In My Opinion" piece on this website on this matter shortly. I'm considering titling it "The Missing Key and Lock of Hair of Myopia."