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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
sand hills course maintained for $0
« on: August 01, 2008, 11:18:28 AM »
Would it be possible to build a course in the Sand Hills that can be maintained for $0? The course would have at least one wind mill. The electricity generation kind, not the rustic kind. The equipment would all be electrical powered and smart. The mowers would go out a night and mow their preprogrammed routine. They would return and self dock to their charging stations. The power for the charging stations would come from the wind. The irrigation would be pumped by power from the wind from on site wells. Would the biggest difficulty be the sand pros?

Can anyone else imagine this happening?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 01:45:17 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 11:21:20 AM »
I'm thinking you are going to have one very highly paid mechanic.

And maybe somebody to determine how much to irrigate every day.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 11:25:17 AM »
This kind of technology is getting closer, but still aways off I think to be practical.

http://www.darpa.mil/GRANDCHALLENGE/

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 11:31:24 AM »
Why would you need sand pros?
If your striving for $0 - tell them to use their feet.

The capital investment would be very large.
A course requires a lot of energy - relatively speaking.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 11:37:16 AM »
Net or Gross?


Gross, absolutely not because, as noted, capital equipments costs are part of the equation.

However, I could see that a wind farm could generate enough electricity that could produce revenue to offset the other costs items mentioned ....
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2008, 11:48:48 AM »
The mowing is problematic. Different mowing patterns require different routes. Sensors would have to be embedded in the course to allow for diferent routes to be programmed that the machines would follow. What if there are objects in the way of the mowers?
You would also need sensors for determining the proper amount of water to put on the golf course.
The list of obstacles would be enormous. But it's fun to think about.
Just make sure the wind never stops blowing.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2008, 11:54:12 AM »
Mike,

Obviously it would cost a bundle to get all the equipment to start up, just as it would cost a bundle to build the course, but then the equipment runs for free without operators so the ongoing cost would be nothing. Since it is all electrical, there is none of the maintenace like changing oil with existing equipment. E.g., GMs EV-1 essentiallly needed brake pads once in a coons age, because the electric motor is such an effective braker.

Kalen,

I haven't looked at your link, but I suspect you are thinking of vision application being needed. I am thinking of the equipment not needing such technology, because it is all programmed with a non-varying fixed program, i.e., the landscape won't change significant enough to need variance.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2008, 11:56:48 AM »
Really sorry, but this idea to this extreme will never happen. Using the windmill for power and implementing smart, electrical, possibly completely robotic machines.....maybe. Maybe even in the not-so-distant future.

But any job that works with and manipulates nature will always require at least several human minds to at the very least oversee, organize and implement all practices.

How will non-manpowered machines be able to work around such obstalces in golf maintenance as...
...sprinkler heads stuck on overnight, in the way of mowers and possibly flooding out large areas of turf or bunkers? And furthermore, correct troublshooting and repair of that sprinkler to correct the problem?
...removal and replacement of course accessories (tee markers, flagsticks, garbage cans, etc.) in the way of mowing?
...damage caused by wind, rain, animals etc. which is impossible to predict and may be in the way of machines?
...proper analysis and correct means of correction of turf weed, disease and insect problems?

There are many others.....but the day we have a group of machines that can take care of a 100+ acre golf course and all that entails with ZERO regular human input is the day we as humans aren't even needed anymore.

And beyond the idea of saving energy, I have yet to see and would find it hard to believe, a course that requires ZERO artifical inputs, such as fertilizer and chemicals. There are courses that have reduced these immensely, but none use absolutely nothing. So unless you're using compost tea and natural plant extracts.............

Your best chance is to go back to the beginning and play golf in an open field where grass has been munched down by grazing sheep, stick 18 cans with a stick in the ground and call it a golf course.  ;D
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2008, 11:57:55 AM »
,,,
And maybe somebody to determine how much to irrigate every day.

Satellite imagery Tom. As for the mechanic, remember it is all electric and computers. It would be a reclusive software engineer that is needed. I can't think of anyone like that. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2008, 12:02:14 PM »

Since it is all electrical, there is none of the maintenace like changing oil with existing equipment. E.g., GMs EV-1 essentiallly needed brake pads once in a coons age, because the electric motor is such an effective braker.



In the history of mankind, name one battery powered rechargeable electrically operated SMART piece of equipment that never had a failure or required some kind of maintenance.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2008, 12:21:20 PM »
A company in Sunnyvale, Cyberdyne Systems, is working on just such a project.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
You still don't get it, do you? He'll find her. That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him. He'll wade through you, reach down her throat, and pull her f%&king heart out.
 --Kyle Reese

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2008, 12:23:05 PM »

Since it is all electrical, there is none of the maintenace like changing oil with existing equipment. E.g., GMs EV-1 essentiallly needed brake pads once in a coons age, because the electric motor is such an effective braker.



In the history of mankind, name one battery powered rechargeable electrically operated SMART piece of equipment that never had a failure or required some kind of maintenance.

Point well taken Mike, but the goal is to run long periods of time on $0. Certainly far longer that fossil fuel equipment.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 12:50:06 PM »
How are you going to topdress?  How would you aerify?  How would you cut cups, empty trash, move tee markers, etc every day?  How would you fix the 30+ irrigation breaks every year?  The list goes on and on.  $0 in maintenance expenses is absolutely impossible.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2008, 12:57:58 PM »
How are you going to topdress?  How would you aerify?  How would you cut cups, empty trash, move tee markers, etc every day?  How would you fix the 30+ irrigation breaks every year?  The list goes on and on.  $0 in maintenance expenses is absolutely impossible.

For those of you that keep mentioning tee markers, I think Ballyneal teaches us that they are not needed.

I guess I didn't state that my goal was getting rid of the crew that is usually hired to run equipment, etc. Clearly there would have to be that reclusive software engineer, maintenance guru to oversee the project and take the flags in at the end of the day and set the cups the next morning.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2008, 01:19:45 PM »
Garland, Couple of quick questions. No tone, no attitude, just questions.

Have you ever been to SH?

Are you at all familiar with DY's mandate on course presentation? Watering?

The truth is, SH's maintenance budget is higher than it was it's first 8 years.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sand Hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2008, 01:35:02 PM »
Adam,

I suspect, because I wrote Sand Hills instead of sand hills that you think I mean the existing Sand Hills Country Club. I don't.

I mean the one I am proposing with the wind power/sun power heated and cooled underground homes with non-reflective glass walls nestled in the hills facing the course. ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 01:36:59 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2008, 01:46:04 PM »
bump for modified subject
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2008, 05:05:08 PM »
Garland, I love the idea. When Ballyneal was first introduced to this site I asked a similar question about in-ground buildings.

I wouldn't think $0 is doable but surely the self sustainable would lower long term costs and be E friendly.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2008, 06:04:07 PM »
[i/]Can anyone else imagine this happening?[/i]-GB

No, because there's no one to bitch at.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Cory Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2008, 09:31:25 PM »
If we're going to do this let's go all the way.
A golf course that designs and builds itself for free too ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2008, 11:22:54 PM »
If we're going to do this let's go all the way.
A golf course that designs and builds itself for free too ;D

That's a little bigger software project than I was anticipating. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2008, 11:36:47 PM »
I think that many of these ideas are not too far off.  It wouldn't surprise me if John Deere or Toro isn't working on some of them.

Brad Huff

Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2008, 09:15:58 AM »
The day to day stuff is closer than you think.  Even our high school robotics teams build simple versions of these kinds of machines.  The combonation of sensors, computers and robotics is pretty powerful.  They've been doing this kind of stuff for years in colleges.  I would venture to say the technology is available right now to:

1. mow - GPS map loaded plus sensors for changes in what it thinks should be there.  It skips what shouldn't be there and sends a report back to the human.  Want to change the mow pattern?  No problem, we do it every day in our cars when we use our GPS to a new address

2. Cut new holes - this would be one of the easiest in my opinion.  GPS loaded data of new holes.  How about this...  computer scoring on the cart cross referenced with hole locations, weather, etc to run an algorithm to pick hole locations for the course for either difficult or easy set up.

3. We already use them for irrigation

4. edge the cartpaths.

The big problem would probably be power.  I'd have to put a pencil to it, but I'm guessing we need more than a few windmills.  And I don't see any way around needing a few humans for maintenance, programming, etc...

4.

Pat Brockwell

Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2008, 09:49:47 AM »
You can't maintain a golf course without having someone calling in with another BS excuse for why they can't get to work today.  The bunkers would be wind groomed, nix the bunker rake.  Who would hunt gophers, a robotic Carl Spackler?  If you did it in synthetic turf robotic sweepers could be used, firm and fast.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: sand hills course maintained for $0
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 10:48:22 PM »
...Who would hunt gophers, a robotic Carl Spackler? ...

There are gophers in the Sand Hills?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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