Can the best golf course in the world have

[Steve Curry]

a hotel as well as hundreds of houses and cottages?

Steve

[PThomas]

TOC does!

[Garland Bayley]

a hotel as well as hundreds of houses and cottages?

Steve

I don't think so. The rules would not define them as hazards. Although I enjoy blind shots, there may be too many to suit even the most ardent blind shot advocate, and the walks between holes would be to far. Could you at least cut it down to under 100 houses and cottages?

[RJ_Daley]

IMHO, No, not if they are remotely in play, even as OB.

Of course, what is reasonable proximity?  I think the quantity is also a factor.  Perhaps if there are one or two historical and traditional homes or structures within sightlines, completely away from play, yet part of the historic landscape, it is OK.  Like the backdrop of Royal County Downs, the steeple and village, etc.  Sparsely spaced and traditional structure works for me. 

But, anything lining the course with OB of residences or commercial hotels and spas and such preclude the course from being considered a great course, IMO.  TOC is a one of a kind exception in my mind.  The course is seminal in golf course layout and design, and grew up around the 'Old Grey Toon" in a symbiotic relationship. 

[Tony Ristola]

If the course is a core golf course, and the surrounding community add to the place... why not.

[Ken Moum]

a hotel as well as hundreds of houses and cottages?

Steve

I used to think the concept of a golf course like Sand Hills where you feel alone in the dunes was very appealing. Then I played in Scotland.

Now, I would argue that the collegial feel of places like TOC, Dornoch, Brora, N. Berwick et. al, is an important part of my enjoyment of the course and the golf.

Proximity to the community, is a wonderful thing, as long as the houses aren't on both sides of the fairway.

K

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

That's a very good question.  I think you will hear a lot of "no"s as there are a lot of people with preconceptions of what a great golf course should be like.  I would say that not many of the current contenders DO have heavy development in proximity to them, but it's not impossible.

[Garland Bayley]

OH! You mean around the course.

How about building it in the Sand Hills with below ground houses for natural cooling in the summer and natural ground warmth in the winter. Nonreflective glass walls facing the fairways from the surrounding hills. Sky lights at ground level to bring light down into the homes.

[Tim Leahy]

Pebble does, but they are not intrusive.

[Greg Tallman]

If the peripheral visuals of a stunning ocean have nothing to do with the quality of the course how do houses placed well outside the playing corridors detract from another?

Interesting that many argue both sides... why is housing so awful but the ocean unimportant?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Re: Can the best golf course in the world have

a grand expanse of sand, six more course to choose from, a University, a ruined castle, a ruined cathedral, parts of an old town wall, and old harbour, golfing museum, great bunch of locals, warm (as described by overseas visitors) as well as cool beer, lots of old houses and cottages, a long history, Capitol of a Kingdom and last but certainly not least queue with some of the best players in the world – “ My Kind of Town”

PS It has been reported that a small invasion force of what was described as wild men certainly not from these parts caused millions of pounds worth of damage to the recently restored Castle, Cathedral and town wall. Reports state that strange chants had been heard prior to damage being inflicted upon the town and the surrounding area – it was difficult to make sense from the survivors (still traumatised) but the words BUDA, BUDA, BUDA had been clearly heard. Anyone knowing any information re any group with an association with BUDA, believed by Police to perhaps represent an ancient western mystic group - to contact them immediately. There maybe a link to the disturbances reported earlier the week before at Dornoch, where local Police are seeking an individual who is said to have answered to the name of Bill. If you are aware of this person Police have warned that he might be dangerous and not to approach him, however when armed with a golf club he tends to self harm and that would be the only time to safely approach him. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Garland,

Your observation that, "I don't think so. The rules would not define them as hazards..."

Actually the USGA just issued an addendum to the rules based upon the current quality of construction practices and declared all housing and cottages built as part of golf course properties qualify as "Temporary Immovable Objects!" 

[John Burzynski]

I have never been to TOC, but it would seem to me that part of the appeal of houses / hotels there is that people actually utilize the course and te surrounding areas in their everyday comings and goings.  The locals walk their dogs on the course,  walk around the surrounding area to shop, etc.. am I correct?  This would seem to add a community /samll town feel to the area, where the golf course is a part of the community like a municiapal park in the US.

My experience with houses lining golf courses in the US is exactly the opposite.  The existence between residents and golfers is usually tense at best, with golfers infringing on private property in search of their golf ball, and residents not happy seeing golfers, even though they moved next to a golf course.  Most residents here in the US don't or aren't allowed to use the course as a walking path / community area, and if they did they would be tresspassing or in danger frominconsiderate American golfers.

Just my observation, I may be way of on the idyllic atmosphere that I often read exists around the Scottish and Irish courses between the residents and the golfers.

[Tim Nugent]

John, in all my years of being a GCA, I have been on many, many courses.  In the course of doing my work, I walk all over courses while play is ongoing.  Public, private, I can't recall anyone ever being less than courtious and most of the time downright friendly (although they didn't have a clue as to who Iwas or why I was there).  Probably because most prople playing golf are there to have a good time and are enjoying the experience.
On the other hand, I have to agree with you on the homeowner observation.  They can be a-h's.  Probably because they are NOT playing golf.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Further to my reply 10 above, I have just received an update as to this individual currently know as Bill being sought in connection with enquiries to disturbances in Dornoch and St Andrews. Police believe that he may be also involved in the reproduction of pornographic material currently being used on the World Wide Web as a possible sighting on GCA.com Post The Ebb and Flow of GCA  reply 51 has come to light. Assistance is required to name and shame this individual.

Spokesman for the R&A believe that his disguise is that of a friendly gentle golfer and are keen to see this person apprehended for the good of the game & name of Golf.  They like to confirm that all golfers do not necessary post pictures of young women in their underwear on the web, this new trend is believed to be an overseas influence creeping in and must be stopped after a thorough inspection of the said material.     

[Steve Curry]

Redirect.  Can the greatest golf course in the world be profit driven or is it best based on the love of the game?  I can't picture a great golf course on great links terrain with lots of development on and or around it.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

That is a better question.

A project where profits are the first priority almost never produces a great golf course.  There are too many potential compromises, and if great golf doesn't have the upper hand in such debates, some of the quality will undoubtedly be lost to other interests. 

I've turned down numerous jobs in the past year or two because it was clear the golf was the client's second or third priority.  I'm not opposed to building projects where there is development involved, but if the golf isn't on at least equal footing with the development, we'll start being overruled at key decision points and it is hard to keep one's momentum through a few of those decisions.

Note, however, that courses based on the love of the game can sometimes prove to be very profitable in the end.

[David Stamm]

Note, however, that courses based on the love of the game can sometimes prove to be very profitable in the end.

My hope is that more people out there get this.

[Chip Gaskins]

Note, however, that courses based on the love of the game can sometimes prove to be very profitable in the end.

a few key words....'SOMETIMES" and "IN THE END"

[Jim Nugent]

A project where profits are the first priority almost never produces a great golf course.  There are too many potential compromises, and if great golf doesn't have the upper hand in such debates, some of the quality will undoubtedly be lost to other interests.

Is this one problem many of Jack Nicklaus' courses face? 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

That is a problem for every "signature" designer -- big names are worth the most to a developer who doesn't have a good site, and needs the name to convince people the course will be good.  So, many of those projects are compromised from the start.  I've had a lot more calls about that kind of project in the last 3-4 years now that I'm more popular.  Before that, I only got calls from people who wanted great golf first and didn't care about housing, because if housing was the priority they'd have been calling somebody with a bigger name.

You hear Nicklaus and Fazio quoted all the time that their clients gave them "total freedom" to route the course wherever they wanted to, to try and counteract this criticism, but it's rarely true.  They probably get more choice in the matter than other architects do, but once they're under contract, they have to listen to the client's needs, and if the client is interested in the housing there will usually be compromises.

[Steve Curry]

Can the look and feel of St. Andrews and TOC be replicated in a modern project?  The course became and the buildings I assume are of classic quality and character??

Thanks,
Steve

[Philippe Binette]

Steve...

if it was not for lawyers, the model could of toc could be done...

as for the question... if the planning and the architecture is as great as the course ....yes