Pine Valley or Shinnecock.....Which is # 1 in the USA ?

[jkinney]

Gentlemen - I started this post yesterday because over the past decade I've gone back & forth in my own mind about ranking PV and Shinny. Allow me now to articulate my reasoning for choosing Shinny as #1 and to comment on all the excellent posts today on this thread.

First off, I find the " Let's not rank the very top courses against each other " argument to be unrealistic idealism, since they ARE ranked by numerous raters for numerous lists and always will be. Secondly, I personally have thought for years that PV and Shinny were a cut above the rest of the top ten - for many of the reasons articulated by you today. The two are to me the greatest and purest tests of golf in the USA.
Mind you, this doesn't keep me from saying that there's no place in the world I'd rather be that on the grounds of the NGLA (which I'm sure many say about Cypress and Augusta, among others). But none of these have quite the hole- by- hole pure shotmaking tests, IMO, that PV and Shinny possess.

Over the past decade or so, I've come to believe that Shinny has passed PV for the following reasons. TEPaul articulated one of these perfectly. PV can play easier than it looks, while Shinny tends to play harder than it looks. Another reason is the triangular nature of the nines, which makes one play the wind from every angle several times during the round and use every club in the bag from often sloping fairway lies. The bump & run game is vastly more in play at Shinny, and to me that is a necessary ingredient to real greatness. Chas. Stevenson, the Green Chmn., has opened the course dramatically through a decade of tree removal, and so sight lines are all open, and the wind runs freely through the course. Mark Michaud, the Greenskeeper brought from Pebble, has the course in immaculate condition. Wayne Morrison articulated another reason. It's more of a a course for all ages and skill levels than PV.

Finally, great holes are better when viewed many at the same time, IMO. That is vastly more the case at Shinny then at PV. The sweeping view of 1,9,18,17,16 & 14 from the clubhouse hill is an architectural feast. My preference has always been for open vistas for that reason and also because of the conviviality in seeing so many groups on the course while one is playing.

For years I've felt that holes 1-7 are warm-ups for 8-18, which are the greatest collection of 11 architectural diamonds in a row I've ever seen. I find Shinny to be the hardest FAIR test of golf there is. So there you have it from my point of view. PV should be replaced at the top by Shinny, IMO.

[BVince]

Cypress Point Club.

I have never played Cypress Point, so I don't have a frame of reference.  The one thing I always seem to hear about cypress is... the lack of anything positive about the 18th hole there.  For those of you on this board that have played the course, is the 18th really that bad when compared to the rest of the course?  And if so, does it detract from the entire course enough to knock it down a bit compared to either PV or SHGC?

A good friend of mine has played both and although he thought the beauty of Cypress was fantastic, in his opinion, hole by hole, Pine Valley is a superior course.

I like the 18th hole and thought it was a great end.  Seems to me that the critics are searching to find a flaw

[Bradley Anderson]

I have never been to either course, but have studied them from photos and descriptions.

If I had the choice to visit one or the other, that would be a very hard choice to make, but it would have to be Shinecock, and that's probably more because of how I play, which is not very strait off the tee.

[Tom Birkert]

I think it's a very difficult question to answer. Personal preference will normally come into it and influence decisions when you're talking about two such fabulous golf courses.

I like to put Muirfield foward as a comparable example to Shinnecock. It's all there for you to see, and it's a very hard, but fair, test of golf. I got the feeling that people would expect to play better at Shinnecock than Pine Valley because it's not as visually intimidating.

Personally, for day to day Member play I would rather choose Cypress Point Club or NGLA as they are more forgiving in general. I would class Pine Valley (certainly off the tips) as a golf course where you have to be able to hit the ball a considerable distance off the tee, whereas Shinnecock is more playable, a trait it shares with Merion, which is certainly every bit as much of a test, and you won't find a harder, fairer course with the same yardage in my opinion.

I hope one day to be able to assess Oakmont in with the others, but until I have played there I will reserve judgement. One thing is sure - you have some absolutely fabulous golf course in the US and it's always a pleasure to experience them.

[JESII]

In my opinion, they are both basically flawless.

The greens at Pine Valley blow me away, and the full shots are all really good or great (in large part, because of the greens) and when the course is a bit firm and the green speed is up the fun/challenge is unmatched on a course not immediately exposed to the wind.

Any course containing holes 9 - 11 at Shinnecock would be in my personal top 10, the fact that the rest of them are so good pulls the course up to the top tier of my experience in a tie with Pine Valley.

If the wind is up, Shinnecock...if the greens are up, Pine Valley!

[wsmorrison]

Sully,

Nice summary.  For me, given the playability of SHGC over a much wider range of golfing abilities, it has a bit more going for it than Pine Valley or Merion.  Does this weigh into your decision making at all?  I am especially interested as you are an elite amateur player...even if you don't play much these days.  See you soon, I hope.

[JESII]

Wayne,

I would agree that Shinnecock is more playable to a far wider range of players...but that does not factor into my decision making...nor does the fact that I think Tiger would average a good bit lower score at Pine Valley if he were to play both 10 or 20 times...

I look at this type of discussion solely through my own eyes.

I doubt people can fairly rank a course through another persons eyes/game...if this seems contradictory to my opening statement keep in mind that playable does not equal better...there are surely 25 handicappers that think Pine Valley is better than Shinnecock.

Ironically, the whole point of the ranking process supports my view...1000 people stating their own opinion gives the editors a wide range of perspectives...why should the rankers have to go through the mental acrobatics of thinking through other people's mind?

p.s. Let's grab a beer soon...give me a call next week.

[wsmorrison]

Well said.  I'll call you next week.

[archie_struthers]

 


hey guys where are you drinking beer  ?


Wayne......I fully agree that a wider range of players can enjoy Shinnecock...and probably Merion as well

This being said there isn't one weak hole at Pine Valley....o ....nada..


Shinnecock may be my favorite course to play so far in the USA ....however are we talking architecture or the whole experience   

[JESII]

you're in archie...

The earlier statement about not one weak hole at Pine Valley made me consider if there was a single weak shot...can't think of one. The drive on #9 might be the least impressive, but not weak by any means. Drive on #12 maybe, but it can certainly lead to disaster if you fall asleep. Approach to #18? I like it, but others have called it underwhelming...

[archie_struthers]

)


Jim...have to confess that playig Shinnie was absolutely unreal , what a spot....I guess I'm not one to compare and rank golf courses as 1...2...3..
or 20....you just can't .

But  I've got to say the greens at Pine Valley are unbelievable...as are most of the shots ....particularly as it gets cranked up ...and I believe it's architecture that shines through hole after hole.....even more so than the architecture at Shinnecock...where the conditions play a much bigger role

So if you are ranking the architecture I can vote for one being better...it's the tremendous detail ...the preponderence of the evidence that amazes me about the "Valley"

I probably would rather play Shinnecock....I r favor the links style and unobstructed views...but as you hint at shot for shot...green by green, the genius of Crumps work is hard to argue


 

[Tom Birkert]

Approach to #18? I like it, but others have called it underwhelming...

Are you being serious? From the tips, just making the fairway is hard enough, then you're faced with an uphill shot of circa 200 yards, with water, fronting bunkers and a severely undulating green. It's a fantastic approach, can't believe anyone would ever consider it underwhelming.

[wsmorrison]

I agree with my friend Tom Birkert.  If anyone says the approach to 18 at PV is underwhelming, I will fight them 

As for Shinnecock Hills, when the green expansion project is complete, watch out Pine Valley 
Seriously though, it will return the full potential of the course.  While the greens are not as unbelievable as Pine Valley, they are great and require a great eye for reading greens.  I think the falloffs and short grass areas around the green are varied (not systematic as at Pinehurst #2) and exceptionally strategic, especially with newly restored pin positions.  SHGC has a bit of room to improve with the completion of the restoration.  Even Pine Valley is not quite perfect as is.  Trees need to come down, especially along the left side of 12.  Does anyone want to see those evergreens come down on the right side of 15 exposing that downslope.  I bet more shots go to the right as golfers steer clear of trouble above the hole left.

Shinnecock Hills, Merion and Pine Valley are my three favorite courses in America (of the ones I've played).  They actually are a tier unto themselves.  An argument can be made for any of them as #1 in addition to a a few others.  I prefer Shinnecock Hills.  Thankfully, I know all three quite well and have studied them on and off the courses for a long time now.

Archie, you are of course in on the beers, but only if I'm buying at least the first and last rounds.  If we include Tom Paul, we'll have to switch to red wines.  In that case, Jamie should join us as well.  He's got the good stuff.

[JESII]

Approach to #18? I like it, but others have called it underwhelming...

Are you being serious? ...EDIT out of some words... can't believe anyone would ever consider it underwhelming.

Master Patrick Mucci!

[C. Squier]

Threads like this make it worthwhile to sift through all the bad ones.....I've been living vicariously through you guys for the last 2 days.  Keep the thoughts rolling....great stuff.

CPS

[ChipOat]

OK, I'll take the bait since it's Wayne that's asking.  I'm not a member of either club and I've played them both about the same number of times over the last 33 years (not enough of either, to be sure).

First, I'll say why my vote goes to Pine Valley.

Then I'll put in the caveat as to why one of my preference points may be reasonably challenged.

Why Pine Valley?

1) PV plays the great way that it does under windless conditions with (mostly) very wide fairways and minimal rough (although hitting it off those wide fairways is no bargain).  Shinnecock needs wind and, in my opinion, very deep, penal rough to give it the teeth that makes it the major championship gem that it is.  Part of the reason for that is the green complexes at PV are, for the most part, more problematic (#14 excluded being nearly flat) while SOME of Shinnecock's green complexes (mostly the downwind holes) are pretty simple - #'s 3, 12 and 14 come to mind.  See caveat below re: possible irrelevant comparison.

2) If you took all the holes at Pine Valley except #14 out of Pine Valley and duplicated them on parkland terrain with a parkland "look" (mostly in the bunkering) instead of the much loved/feared PV appearance, I believe you'd still have 17 amazing golf holes.  The shot values and green complexes are that good that they'd stand on their own merits at any unremarkable looking venue.  Shinnecock has many holes about which you can say the same thing (#11 would be my first choice on that), but not, IMO, 17 of them.

Caveat:  It may be unfair to compare the downwind green complexes at Shinnecock as being ordinary or simplistic relative to Pine Valley - especially under windless conditions.  One has to presume that Flynn would never have biuilt them that way on a parkland piece of property where little or no breeze was ever really expected.

Dave Thomas might have enjoyed the summer weather at SH more than the blistering heat at PV, but if he wasn't much of a player, he'd have been just as miserable in the deep hay at Shinnecock as he ever was in the well known perils of Pine Valley.

[JESII]

Chip,

With all respect, and not challenging the favored course, but your justification/explanation seemed a bit like saying..."if Pebble Beach were not on the ocean..."

JS

[ChipOat]

JES II:

That's why it was "caveat-ed".

Somebody asked me to give a preference with explanation.  I did it.

Even if point #1 doesn't satisfy a strict apples-to-apples analysis, I'll submit my point #2 on it's own.

[JESII]

Thank you...one thing that surely lacks on here is an educated opinion and I truly appreciate them...

[ChipOat]

JES II:

Thank you for considering my opinions to be educated (at least, this one).

Among many other people, my wife and teenage children beg to differ with you - except when they want $$$$.

[JESII]

Chip,

In that audience, you are well outnumbered...with no disrespect to the girls of course...

[archie_struthers]

 


thanks all for some goood chat and Wayne for the forced invite LOL  I'lll take it...anyone feel like playing Greate Bay and havign a few at  Charlies or the Anchorage I'll be the host

cheers
Archie

[jkinney]

Threads like this make it worthwhile to sift through all the bad ones.....I've been living vicariously through you guys for the last 2 days.  Keep the thoughts rolling....great stuff.

CPS

As of now, with hopefully many more educated essays to be submitted, it seems that PV and Shinny are tied for "top" as the Brits say. Under Ryder Cup rules, of course, the holder retains the trophy in the event of a draw.

[TEPaul]

Chipoat:

That post #40 of yours is really good stuff. It's a pretty unique take on these two courses. Guys, this is what the thing called "experience" is all about. What the Chipper said is from some years of observation and experience. If you want to go the last mile with some of this ultra sophisticated architecture like those two you pretty much need the time in, the observation and the experience of a Chipper Oat. How in the hell else do you think you can figure it out----in some Ivory Tower in Ohio reading old magazine and newspaper articles and  never going there? Wouldn't it be great if it really worked that way?

It just don't! Don't take my word for it. The Chipper can tell you fine and he just did. 

[mike_beene]

How does Shinnecock play and feel compared to Muirfield. Having never been to Shinnecock,the closest I can get to its feeling is to compare it to something I know.Are the other links courses that are a closer comparison?