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Mike_Cirba

The list is growing...

Kingsbarns
Whistling Straits
Castle course
Chambers Bay
Bayonne
Twisted Dune
Rawls Course
Gailes (MI)
Tribute (TX)
Heathland (SC)
Moorland (SC)


I'm probably missing some obvious ones...

Since this seems to be a growing trend, what are the features that work to make the course seem authentic?   Which features fall flat?

Generally, do we applaud this trend, or believe that dead flat, featureless land should still yield something worthwhile if kept to a minimalist architectural philosophy?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 08:58:16 PM by MikeCirba »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chambers Bay was not dead flat featureless land. The dead flat featureless land was discarded from the project and the project reduced to 18 holes so the more interesting landscape could be used.

The land used allowed for 18 distinct holes, with a variety of features in play to make things interesting. I don't think many would say they were fooled into thinking it was an authentic landscape if you told them its history. I think too much of the helter-skelter left from the mining operation seems unnatural to have people really fooled.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike:

As a rule, I don't like "links style" courses.  But if you have a relatively treeless, flat piece of featureless land, what decent golf course can you otherwise make?  For example, minimalist in Lubbock would not even be golf, nor would there even be drainage.  It would be flooded with every rain.

We must play golf where we are.  Because we are not always in an area that offers the ideal terrain, we therefore must make the best use of the land available.

Just my opinion.

Bart  


Mike_Cirba

Garland,

I'm not sure "fooled" is the word I'm looking for.   I'm more thinking in terms of creating similar playing conditions to links golf, and what are 1) the features that can add to that goal, and 2) the features that pop us back into plasticine reality.  

For instance, for me, a completely conical dune that's pointy on top, or patterns of bunkering that seem to make no sense from a natural erosion standpoint pop the fantastical bubble for me, yet firm conditions and coastal grasses and variety of colors (including browns and purples) do wonders to add to the wonderful fantasy.


Bart,

I agree with the part of your premise that suggests it is very difficult to create a great golf course with a minimalist philosophy on boring land.    It can be done, but it's very rare.

More often than not on such terrain, less is less.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 09:11:35 PM by MikeCirba »

Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
I personally truly enjoy playing courses that play like "links courses".  I think wind is an essential ingredient though.  As long as there is wind in the area and it is done right with the ground being firm and fast I think it is a good thing. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

I was trying to remove Chambers from your list as being "highly manufacturered". The manufacturing cost perhaps could be better characterized as environmental restoration, since a large portion of the cost was restoring the land to something that could be used for growing grass for a golf course. The features were already there. When I did the original thread on it, my comparison was to Old Works, not to something like Whistling Staits, Kings Barns, or the Castle Course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
While I haven't seen any of them in person, just based on pictures I've seen got to go with KingsBarns...

But I must be excluded based on the Mucci Corollary!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
The Rawls Course was not intended to look like a links, even though it's a very windy place and the goal is firm and fast.  We tried to shape it to look like an eroded landscape, not to look like dunes.

Of the ones I have seen (all except the Castle Course, Gailes in Michigan, and Tribute in Texas), I would vote for Kingsbarns by a mile as the most natural-looking of the bunch in its shaping.  Although, I will say that it doesn't hurt for it to be right next to the sea to add an air of authenticity.

Does "most natural-looking" translate into "best course"?  For me, it does.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
...what are the features that work to make the course seem authentic?   

I think the first thing I would suggest makes a course seem "linksy" is fairways that flow right into greens.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Rawls Course was not intended to look like a links, even though it's a very windy place and the goal is firm and fast.  We tried to shape it to look like an eroded landscape, not to look like dunes.

Of the ones I have seen (all except the Castle Course, Gailes in Michigan, and Tribute in Texas), I would vote for Kingsbarns by a mile as the most natural-looking of the bunch in its shaping.  Although, I will say that it doesn't hurt for it to be right next to the sea to add an air of authenticity.

Does "most natural-looking" translate into "best course"?  For me, it does.

Tom - should NGLA be on the list as defined in the title of this thread?

I read that it was built on a totally flat terrain.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quite a bit of NGLA is flat, but certainly the 1st and 2nd fairways, 3rd green, 8th green, 16th green and 17th tee and 18th fairway up to the clubhouse and beyond, are all natural hills.  There is quite a bit of elevation change on those holes.

Most everything else could have been shaped but not too likely that long ago.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Rawls Course was not intended to look like a links, even though it's a very windy place and the goal is firm and fast.  We tried to shape it to look like an eroded landscape, not to look like dunes.

Of the ones I have seen (all except the Castle Course, Gailes in Michigan, and Tribute in Texas), I would vote for Kingsbarns by a mile as the most natural-looking of the bunch in its shaping.  Although, I will say that it doesn't hurt for it to be right next to the sea to add an air of authenticity.

Does "most natural-looking" translate into "best course"?  For me, it does.

Tom - should NGLA be on the list as defined in the title of this thread?

I read that it was built on a totally flat terrain.


Voytek,
You haven't played National have you.
#7 is relatively flat-maybe #15-that's about it.

But I'd guess a lot of the land converted to faux links wasn't flat, just not true links land.
Kinsbarns isn't /wasn't flat, it just wasn't links before , but rather rolling farmland.(but it'd be hard to know that if you simply played the course)

Atlantic would be one for the list-and recent improvements will move it up near Kingsbarns as a remarkable faux links.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Melvyn Morrow

Mike

A Golf Links, is defined as an undulating sandy ground near the shore.
All links course have developed over centuries, by being left alone with the exception for grazing sheep or cows. This was not a one way process, the animals in return have themselves fed the land creating some of the most beautiful and magnificent links course in the world at a fraction of the cost
of some of their modern shore lined courses.

Manufactured Links course, not by Nature but by Man, straight away we
have lost the original land, it has been carted away and been replaced and thus shaped by the mind of Man. The final course may well be a challenging,
and highly regarded by the majority of golfers, a credit to the Architect, but the land has been stripped then re moulded into shapes from the mind of its creature, there is no substance to the land, no spirit of the centuries, that has been removed and you are left with just a golf course, still unfinished that may require tweaks in the years to come. A Links course – no, just the Architects design created to generate revenue for the owners.

Mike in answer to your question, if I really have to name one then I expect that I would go for Kingsbarns, but only because in part its location with the shore. That is not to say I want to play it, but each to their own.

The excuse that there is no more land, that it is difficult to get permission to build a golf course, may in the eyes of some be true but I am aware of at least half a dozen sites, three of which can be defined as links, but are the site viable, will they attract the golfer in numbers to pay for the course? My answer is yes, as the construction costs would be minimum (in real terms) due to the land, thus allowing for more facilities, from a hotel, bars and other attraction to be built as part of the complex to also encourage the non golf players to the area. If you do not agree with me just look at Askernish and the small budget they are working with to re-open the lost course. It’s all about the Spirit of Man, to meet the challenge and work with the land to achieve the best for both worlds (Mans & Nature). Let’s not forget that Nature will in the end always win.

   

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn, I'm not sure... The old links courses aren't completely natural either... We've just recently discussed the 18th green at the old course being built up... and what of the 17th?

And lets take Kingsbarns... The entire lower shelf of that property was sandy soil next to the sea... Would you call that links land?

Would you call the new David Kidd course at Machrihanish Dunes natural?

And your definition of Links is somewhat random... Links land can be completely flat as well - it just makes for less interesting golf... To me, a links is a links solely because it "links" the sea to the farming land...

I'm really just playing Devils Advocate - I know exactly what you mean and agree with it in large parts... But I also think that it is quite a romantic notion...

Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
In Old Tom's day the golf architects they really had little choice, for the most part they were forced to work with what nature gave them. After his death heavy equipment became available and gradually architects were able to mold the ground. If Old Tom was working in the 1920s or 1930s do you think he would have used heavy equipment to mold the ground?

Melvyn Morrow

Ally

Romantic notion, you may well be right, but in the end we play the game the way it was taught to us. My father was a kind and gentle man who believed in helping others as much as his own family. Many told me that they believed that he had Old Tom’s qualities, I don’t know, but as I have matured I have started to understand.

Yes, much work has been done from the Martyrs Monument down over the 1 & 18th Tees, but the course via the West Sand is still the old links which has seen some mods over the years.

As I said each to their own - Romantic, yes I will happily accept that if Scottish Golf remains as it is.

One question, St Andrews has many thousands of visitors each year from all over the world to play traditional Scottish golf.  Why did they select a site that had to be striped then reface and contoured for a course – certainly had nothing to do with Scottish Golf or its tradition, it had all to do with revenue. The course may well turn out to be a good course but it does not reflect what the town is all about and what it was built upon. Is this what you want for the future of Scottish Golf?  Just playing Devils Advocate – no, being serious.


Tom

As I have said before Old Tom had no problem facing new technology after all he had fun with Allan over the gutta-percha ball. I have no doubt that if he believed it required heavy earth moving he would use it. But it’s my opinion that I am putting forward not Old Tom’s. Again as I said previously I do not believe that Old Tom would have built a course on the site of the new Castle Course. It just is not the right location for a course IMHO


Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
How about Dundonald Links (formerly Southern Gailes) also designed by Kyle Phillips. From the hole gallery images it looks more natural than Kingsbarns.

http://www.dundonaldlinks.com/gallery/

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

I happen to agree with you in not calling any of the courses mentioned in the first post 'Links' courses, whether manufactured or not, with the possible / probable exception of Kingsbarns... That said, I haven't seen most of them first hand...

What do I want for the future of Scottish Golf?... I certainly would like for it to continue to represent something different... The traditions of the game played in a democratic way for the most part and accessible to all... Scotland is I believe alone in this regard... It is an upper-middle class / business class sport in most other countries... Leaving Scotland for Ireland 10 years ago, I was disgusted to find how expensive and difficult it would be to join a good club, something I'd taken for granted previously...

The business model is changing in Scotland also though...

In truth, I have the same romantic wishes as you... But I may be more realistic also as the world we live in is not the same as 100 years ago...

Thomas MacWood


As I have said before Old Tom had no problem facing new technology after all he had fun with Allan over the gutta-percha ball. I have no doubt that if he believed it required heavy earth moving he would use it. But it’s my opinion that I am putting forward not Old Tom’s. Again as I said previously I do not believe that Old Tom would have built a course on the site of the new Castle Course. It just is not the right location for a course IMHO


Melvyn
OTM built the King James VI golf course on a flattish island on the River Tay. Flooding and muddy ground have been an on going issue. In your opinion was KJ VI more suitable for golf than the new Castle course?

Melvyn Morrow

Ally

I believe I am realistic, it just that I want to hold on to the things that are important to me.

I agree, when I was in Northern Ireland in the late 60’s and considering Royal Belfast I decided not to apply and found myself driving from Belfast to Portrush/Stewart most week-ends. Plus the odd trip to the Mountains of Mourne and the Sleive Donard Hotel.

Regrettable I agree that the Scottish model is changing, but I'm not surprised.  I can accept the apathy from the majority of clubs I have contacted, but I can’t accept the rudeness, lack of manners and sheer stubbiness to respond to e-mail messages. Muirfield management IMO are the most arrogant and obnoxious of the lot. Scottish Golf is in the most fortunate position of all and yet they have no idea what they are missing out on by just not communicating with either visitors or each other. But then they are just playing follow the leader and shadowing the R&A.

For my part I regard myself as the lone rear gunner, trying to stop all those Fockers trying to sneak up on us without a fight. The majority of the time it can get rather lonely, but with Old Alfie Ward fighting his corner we may one day persuade others the cause is indeed worth fight for.

I though of a little speech to make to the R&A and all the Clubs in Scotland which reads as follows: -
 
We shall fight on the seas and oceans (should read links & islands of Scotland)
We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air (mine needs improving)
We shall defend our Golf, whatever the cost may be (limited to £50 green fees)
We shall fight on the beaches (those bloody wayward shots),
We shall fight on the landing grounds (Castle Course, Kingsbarns)
We shall fight in the fields and in the streets (keep golf on the Links)
We shall fight in the hills, Bunkers and over water hazards
We shall never surrender  :P :'( :'(

But I realised the enemy, the corruptible force is already well entrenched in the fabric of our game in Scotland, so I will not bother. I jest but its not getting that far from the truth IMHO. ;)




Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ocean Course at Kiawah

Dub_ONeill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the Langer course at the Pormarnock Hotel a true links or a manufacatured links?  Does it occupy a place on this list?  It never seems to get much attention and I have always assumed it just isn't very good.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Seems to me that Ocean, while built up, and Wild Dunes in S.C. would not fall under this heading.  They are on linksland.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is the Langer course at the Pormarnock Hotel a true links or a manufacatured links?  Does it occupy a place on this list?  It never seems to get much attention and I have always assumed it just isn't very good.

No, it's a true links... It has one inland dune ridge that has been manufactured to add framing and visuals... the original land must only have had the main dune ridge at the sea... but it is definitely true sandy links land... It's quite a good course too... It deserves some attention but I imagine it doesn't get it because it is new and it is set up as a pay and play...

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Rawls Course was not intended to look like a links, even though it's a very windy place and the goal is firm and fast.  We tried to shape it to look like an eroded landscape, not to look like dunes.

Of the ones I have seen (all except the Castle Course, Gailes in Michigan, and Tribute in Texas), I would vote for Kingsbarns by a mile as the most natural-looking of the bunch in its shaping.  Although, I will say that it doesn't hurt for it to be right next to the sea to add an air of authenticity.

Does "most natural-looking" translate into "best course"?  For me, it does.

Tom - should NGLA be on the list as defined in the title of this thread?

I read that it was built on a totally flat terrain.


Voytek,
You haven't played National have you.
#7 is relatively flat-maybe #15-that's about it.

But I'd guess a lot of the land converted to faux links wasn't flat, just not true links land.
Kinsbarns isn't /wasn't flat, it just wasn't links before , but rather rolling farmland.(but it'd be hard to know that if you simply played the course)

Atlantic would be one for the list-and recent improvements will move it up near Kingsbarns as a remarkable faux links.

Jeff - the closest I came to sniffing NGLA was when I saw the windmill when I played Shinnecock...

:-)

I used poor choice of words when I wrote flat terrain. I read in Quirin's book "America's Linksland -  A Century of Long Island Golf" that most features at NGLA were man-made. As I am in Cali this week I have no access to that book for an exact quote, but words to that effect. Perhaps someone can quickly check. So no - not necessarily flat terrain, but many man-made features.

But my question still stands - does NGLA belong in this thread as defined by the thread's title?


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