[Tim Pitner]

Castle Stuart?

[Matt Kardash]

Does "most natural-looking" translate into "best course"?  For me, it does.

Really? Just because a course "looks" more natural doesn't automatically make it more fun, more interesting, or frankly, even more visually pleasing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding and you are just refering to the fact that in this case you happen to find the most natural looking course to be the best one. If not, it's a very strange and limiting statement.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I don't tend to limit myself at all.  My point was that if a course is going to pretend to be a links, they have to pull off the naturalness extremely well, or I don't care what the shot values etc. are ... it's not a links and I'm going to resent them calling it one.

If they get the links values right, then they have a fighting chance.  I am sure you understand there are a lot of small links courses which aren't so great by the standards of modern golf shot values, but they are still links so they have something going for them.

[Matt Kardash]

Tom,
What if they didn't say they were trying to build a links course?

I don't really see Whistling Straits as a "links" course. I don't know what was going on inside of Pete Dye's head when he built the place, but I think(even if he has never said this) he had no interest in trying to build a course that looked exactly like you'd find on the coast of Ireland. I think he was no doubt inspired by those courses, but I think he was more interested in building his version of a postmodern links course, if you will. Kind of in the fashion of music by Beck, or a movie by Quentin Tarantino. Being inspired by the past and deeply respecting it, but ultimately not totally trying to emulate it, but doing something a little different with it...and maybe even breaking a few rules along the way. Maybe that isn't your cup of tea. i do admit, while it could bring new, refreshing ideas, it could also be terrible in the wrong hands.

Mind you, I'm guessing Whitsling straits markets itself as a links course, so maybe your issue has more to do with the marketing department?

[Brian Joines]

I really enjoyed Arcadia Bluff  and that would definitely fit the bill of a highly manufactured links course.

I'm not sure what the land looked like before construction but I know the mounding isn't natural.  It certainly looks manufactured to me but I could be wrong. Either way, I had a great time at Arcadia and would love to get back there.

[Jed Peters]

Matt:

I don't tend to limit myself at all.  My point was that if a course is going to pretend to be a links, they have to pull off the naturalness extremely well, or I don't care what the shot values etc. are ... it's not a links and I'm going to resent them calling it one.

If they get the links values right, then they have a fighting chance.  I am sure you understand there are a lot of small links courses which aren't so great by the standards of modern golf shot values, but they are still links so they have something going for them.

You must not like Kingsbarns very much then?

From what I've seen, it doesn't look that natural to me, and they call it a links.

[Phil McDade]

Tom,
What if they didn't say they were trying to build a links course?

I don't really see Whistling Straits as a "links" course. I don't know what was going on inside of Pete Dye's head when he built the place, but I think(even if he has never said this) he had no interest in trying to build a course that looked exactly like you'd find on the coast of Ireland. I think he was no doubt inspired by those courses, but I think he was more interested in building his version of a postmodern links course, if you will. Kind of in the fashion of music by Beck, or a movie by Quentin Tarantino. Being inspired by the past and deeply respecting it, but ultimately not totally trying to emulate it, but doing something a little different with it...and maybe even breaking a few rules along the way. Maybe that isn't your cup of tea. i do admit, while it could bring new, refreshing ideas, it could also be terrible in the wrong hands.

Mind you, I'm guessing Whitsling straits markets itself as a links course, so maybe your issue has more to do with the marketing department?

Matt:

The long-rumored conversation between Pete Dye and Herb Kohler is alleged to have gone something like this (after Kohler and Dye had spent several trips together playing golf in Ireland and Scotland):

Kohler: "Build me Ballybunion on this piece of land I own on Lake Michigan."
Dye: "OK, but it will take a lot of money."

Kohler has said publicly that Dye is the only person who he's given an unlimited budget to on a project and somehow exceeded it (re. WStraits).

WStraits clearly tries to market itself as a (very high-end) links-like experience, from the promoted views of the big drink, to the mandatory caddies, to the sheep grazing around the course, to the use of the terms "Ireland" and "links-style" on its website.

One of the chief complaints about the Straits as a "links-style" course -- expressed on other threads  and by the pros during the 2004 PGA -- is the transition from the fescue grass of the fairways to whatever is used in the 30-50 yards right before the greensite, which is different grass and tends to grab the ball.

[Matt Kardash]

Tom,
What if they didn't say they were trying to build a links course?

I don't really see Whistling Straits as a "links" course. I don't know what was going on inside of Pete Dye's head when he built the place, but I think(even if he has never said this) he had no interest in trying to build a course that looked exactly like you'd find on the coast of Ireland. I think he was no doubt inspired by those courses, but I think he was more interested in building his version of a postmodern links course, if you will. Kind of in the fashion of music by Beck, or a movie by Quentin Tarantino. Being inspired by the past and deeply respecting it, but ultimately not totally trying to emulate it, but doing something a little different with it...and maybe even breaking a few rules along the way. Maybe that isn't your cup of tea. i do admit, while it could bring new, refreshing ideas, it could also be terrible in the wrong hands.

Mind you, I'm guessing Whitsling straits markets itself as a links course, so maybe your issue has more to do with the marketing department?

Matt:

The long-rumored conversation between Pete Dye and Herb Kohler is alleged to have gone something like this (after Kohler and Dye had spent several trips together playing golf in Ireland and Scotland):

Kohler: "Build me Ballybunion on this piece of land I own on Lake Michigan."
Dye: "OK, but it will take a lot of money."

Kohler has said publicly that Dye is the only person who he's given an unlimited budget to on a project and somehow exceeded it (re. WStraits).

WStraits clearly tries to market itself as a (very high-end) links-like experience, from the promoted views of the big drink, to the mandatory caddies, to the sheep grazing around the course, to the use of the terms "Ireland" and "links-style" on its website.

One of the chief complaints about the Straits as a "links-style" course -- expressed on other threads  and by the pros during the 2004 PGA -- is the transition from the fescue grass of the fairways to whatever is used in the 30-50 yards right before the greensite, which is different grass and tends to grab the ball.

Gotcha. However, that doesn't diminish what I said about a sort of postmodern links. It has elements, and a bit of the feel of a links, but it has  been twisted in on itself. Pete dye is not stupid, he has seen all the great links and knows that Whistlng Straits doesn't really look like any of them. I think that was exactly what he was going for in his head.

By the way, I'm not trying to praise or criticize WS. There are things i like about it and things I don't. I'm just using it as an example. To be honest, what I like about WS is how it polarizes people. I get nervous whenever there tends to be a consenus on things. I notice that most things in life that i tend to like in general fall within that region where there is a lot of polarization. Just how I am.

[Rob_Waldron]

Mike

Throw in Trump International under the "Parkland" category. Jim Faz had 12 inches of elevation and a tomato field to begin with.

[Matt Kardash]

1

[Lester George]

Sutton Bay

Sand Hills

Captains Cove

Lester

[Phil McDade]

Matt:

...and I try -- as a resident Cheesehead -- not be overly deferential to WStraits, or critical of it (I haven't played it, but walked it extensively during the PGA).

I love the look of the course, I really like Dye's mix of short and long par 4s, I like how he incorporated some decision-making into tee shots (like the 10th, which I think is a terrific par 4; the PGA was essentially decided at this hole in the varying ways the playoff participants attacked it), and I think the par 3s as a set are very good. I also know a fair amount about the history of the course, having lived here during its development and those of Kohler's other courses.

But, having played some real actual links in Scotland, I think you are correct that this was Dye's attempt at something akin to an Americanized, post-modern links course. I do like the references to Beck and Taratino -- two of my favorite post-modernists.

[john_stiles]

JES,

Black Sheep (David Esler)  in Chicago suburbs touts being an inland links course.

The greens do meld into the fairways about as well as any course I have seen.  Nice course and all other matters are very well done at Black Sheep.  Plays firm if weather allows.  If firm,  you can putt from well off the green, ala many true links.

Lost Dunes (Doak) has the same meld on many holes.

Grass is seemingly cut lower and, voila, you are on the green.

[Garland Bayley]

Sutton Bay

Sand Hills

Captains Cove

Lester

I understand why Sutton Bay is "highly manufactured", because the US Gov. went to a lot of expense to put that body of water next to it.  However, it seems Sand Hills is about the least manufactured course in the world outside of traditional links.

[Reef Wilson]

I haven't played enough of these better ones, but I would nominate "the Links" at Fancourt as the worst of the highly manufactured "links" courses. The website has some over the top bragging about how manufactured it is.

I was so looking forward to playing it and its slow and soft condition was a real let down.

Has anyone else here played there? The Montagu course there is a treat at half the price.

Reef

[Ronald Montesano]

Lester:

Captains Cove in Virginia or somewhere else?  The one in Virginia looks like a Myrtle Beach course, with lots of ponds and stuff...not even close to a fake links, much less a links.

[Thomas MacWood]

As I have said before Old Tom had no problem facing new technology after all he had fun with Allan over the gutta-percha ball. I have no doubt that if he believed it required heavy earth moving he would use it. But it’s my opinion that I am putting forward not Old Tom’s. Again as I said previously I do not believe that Old Tom would have built a course on the site of the new Castle Course. It just is not the right location for a course IMHO

Melvyn
OTM built the King James VI golf course on a flattish island on the River Tay. Flooding and muddy ground have been an on going issue. In your opinion was KJ VI the right location for a course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I take it you have seen and walked not just the site of the Castle Course but stepped foot on Moncrieff Island, so your comments are based upon first hand information.
 
As for King James VI course, some may call it quirky I would call it unique. It takes nothing out or away from the surroundings and has that hint of being similar to a links course by having the river all round. Being an island it has been flooded a few times over the years, but then some links course have lost land to the sea, i.e. Westward Ho, Askernish to name but two  - 
No, I have no problem with It.

Do you? 

[Thomas MacWood]

http://turfweb.lib.msu.edu/starweb/servlet.starweb?path=web4.web&id=webfast4&pass=2fast&search1=SECTF%3D%22Overseas%22%20and%20SCODE%3DTCAUS&format=fl1

http://www.teetimescotland.com/teetime/history.php?historyid=45

Melvyn
I'm not the one complaining about the suitability of the Castle Course site or the other manufactured courses. Perth has a long history of flooding due its location on the Tay. A flood plane is normally not the best site for a golf course (or a building, or a city for that matter). I'd be curious how much money was spent to construct the flood fortifications.

[Doug Ralston]

Not yet mentioned among Michigan course is Eagle Eye. Hell of a lot of fun there. Great par-5's.

Doug

[JESII]

JES,

Black Sheep (David Esler)  in Chicago suburbs touts being an inland links course.

The greens do meld into the fairways about as well as any course I have seen.  Nice course and all other matters are very well done at Black Sheep.  Plays firm if weather allows.  If firm,  you can putt from well off the green, ala many true links.

Lost Dunes (Doak) has the same meld on many holes.

Grass is seemingly cut lower and, voila, you are on the green.

thanks John,

hope you are well.

I think there are all sorts of characteristics that are unique (or should be unique) to links golf, but to me the one thing that just seems to make the course natural/authentic is your last sentence there...Hidden Creek has some of that, but I wouldn't call HC "linksy"...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

You never answer a question so just what is the point in involving you within a debate? 

I’m not repeating my views why I consider the land chosen for the Castle Course as not suitable.

As for Rivers, Seas, Winds, Sand & Rain they all have the ability to destroy. Why not complain that Links course can be prone to sea erosion from storms on a regular basis while you are at it. 

Houses in the UK and over the world have been built upon flood plains. We have in this country found out form recent disasters in 2006/7 that thousand of New homes over the last 30 years have been built on flood plains. I believe that under New York there are many underground rivers, if that is the case, is it good practice to build Skyscrapers on this land – I don’t know, not my fields of expertise.
 
Also don’t forget that we are mortal and that our lives will end one day, so why are you not asking how much money will have to be spent over the years to keep you or any of us alive – does it really matter, the money will be spent as and when required for whatever reason.

You don’t agree with my opinion, fine – I can live with that ,but just say so.   

[archie_struthers]

In building Twisted Dune, the thought process was that if you cut rather than fill (mound ) the look will be better.  Some of the chocolate drop mounds built in Florida faux links  come to mind , which are not appealing to me.

In our case the manufacturing was more of a scarring of the landscape to create a "quarry" effect , reminiscent of the many sand pits located in Southern NJ.  These appear to be natural but in fact were the scars of long gone sand mining operations .  Many of us went swimming in the lakes that resulted from the old mining pits , often they were unbelievably clear and devoid of any plant growth.  It's a shame that over time the particulate matter that builds up in the lakes tend to darken the water.

For Twisted Dune, the need for  millions of yards of clean fill at the site where they build the Borgata enabled us to reduce  the expense of construction dramatically , as we were able to export all our fill away at a profit. . Without this need we would have never attempted to build a course like this, the cost would have been so prohibitive. We have plenty of tree lined venues in our area , so Twisted Dune offfers an alternative to golfers who have never experienced a links golf course. In that Twisted is big, it has a different feel than Brigantine or McCullagh's , which were limited by acreage in what they could build.   

[Adam Sherer]

I may be taking this question too literally, but an early example of a "manufactured" links would be the coastal holes at Maidstone (#9 to be specific).

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/meadowbrookmaidstone1.html

[Tony Ristola]

How about Royal New Kent?

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