Pace of play; a unique way of handling it.

[A.G._Crockett]

I played at Chris Cupit's Rivermont today, and they have a pace of play policy that I had never seen before; after having it explained to me, I wonder why more clubs don't do it this way.  (Hopefully, Chris will see this and correct what I'm sure will be mistakes that make explaining it.)

There are clocks on the course approx. every 4 holes.  The cool thing is, though, that they are set to pace of play standards, rather than the correct time of day.  Consequently, if my group tees off at 9:00 a.m., if we are on pace, every clock that we come to during the round will say 9:00 a.m. throughout the round; if it says 9:20, we are behind pace, and KNOW that we have to pick it up or be asked to skip a hole.  Conversely, if we teed off at 9:00 and the clock on the 14th green says 8:45 when we are putting out, we are ahead of pace!

I see several HUGE advantages to this:

1. Most obviously, all doubt is removed about whether or not we are keeping pace.  No bickering among the group as to whether or not we are playing fast enough or not, or whose fault it is; we are either on pace or we are not.

2. Pressure is taken off the marshals; subjectivity is eliminated.  The clock is the "bad guy" instead.

3. The membership becomes more and more aware of pace of play, and that alone would eliminated most of the problems.

Several additional caveats:
The club adheres strictly to 10 min. tee times, 9 min. on Sat., in order to properly space out groups.

If a group comes in over the pace of play limit (4 hrs., 13 min., I think...) AND are more than 15 min. behind the group ahead of them, they lose the right to an early tee time the next weekend! 

Finally, management makes sure that the early groups know that they are expected to play BELOW the max of 4:13.  The result is that they not only tend to do so, but want to know how much below pace they were when they get in.

Very cool stuff, to which I see no downside.

[Jason Connor]

I've played several public / resort courses with clocks just like you describe.

You'd have the starter write the time you went off (not your tee time) on your scorecard.

But of course like most places they never bothered to police it once people were on the course.

[MargaretC]

If a group comes in over the pace of play limit (4 hrs., 13 min., I think...) AND are more than 15 min. behind the group ahead of them, they lose the right to an early tee time the next weekend! 

Finally, management makes sure that the early groups know that they are expected to play BELOW the max of 4:13.  The result is that they not only tend to do so, but want to know how much below pace they were when they get in.

Very cool stuff, to which I see no downside.

Thank you VERY much!  This is a wonderful idea!  Any idea much the system costs?

This is too cool!  I love it!  

Meg  

[Michael Blake]

I too have seen this at public courses.  It's one thing for a group to recognize they are behind the pace of play by looking at a clock.   But it's certainly another thing for them to care and speed up play.  Most don't care.

But, I think this works at private clubs where losing prime tee time privileges is a good deterrent.

[A.G._Crockett]

If a group comes in over the pace of play limit (4 hrs., 13 min., I think...) AND are more than 15 min. behind the group ahead of them, they lose the right to an early tee time the next weekend! 

Finally, management makes sure that the early groups know that they are expected to play BELOW the max of 4:13.  The result is that they not only tend to do so, but want to know how much below pace they were when they get in.

Very cool stuff, to which I see no downside.

Thank you VERY much!  This is a wonderful idea!  Any idea much the system costs?

This is too cool!  I love it!   

Meg   

Meg,
The cost wouldn't be any more than the cost of the clocks and mountings.  If the clock on the first tee says 9:00 and the first 4 holes are rated to take 44 minutes, then at the same moment you are teeing off on #1, the clock at the 4th green would read 8:16.  44 minutes later, when you putt out on #4, the clock there now reads 9:00, and so on throughout the round.

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, A.G., I've played some public courses with that system, and it does work very well (at least for me and my group, and even without the 'stick' of potentially losing good tee times). It tells you exactly and only what you need to know, i.e. whether you are on schedule or not. The stark and unsmiling clock-face somehow seems less forgiving than a marshall's...

Peter

[Matt_Cohn]

The downside is that when you're simply stuck behind a packed course in front of you, that clock still stares at you, letting you know just how long the whole thing is taking.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha, ha - yes, Matt, that's true too.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

It sounds more like a solution for a Kinderclub than a Golf Club.  You will never beat the ole black ball when it comes to dealing with idiot co-members.

[DMoriarty]

Here is the way Chris described his system a while back in another thread on pace of play:

FWIW, here is what I do--my club is an active fully private club that did 37,000 rounds last year.

1.  Our course was pace rated by the GSGA at 4 hours and 3 minutes--this assumes 90 rule and 4 average golfers from the regular mens' tees.

2.  Our club target MAX time is 4 hours and 10 minutes on weekends.  I point out this is like giving each group an extra 1/2 hole "cushion" and the GSGA pace rating already includes 7 minutes at the turn for a snack.

3.  I tee off one tee on weekends (crossovers are a killer and never really work) and I moved from 8 to 10 minute tee time intervals.

4.  The starter on the first hole notes the time the first ball is in the air and since 18 green is near by he also notes the time the flagstick goes back in the hole on 18.

5.  The first weekend group on the tee sheet that fails to play within 4 hours 10 minutes can not tee off the next weekend before 10:00 AM.  For all other groups, as long as you play within 4 hrs, 10min OR finish within 15 minutes of the group in front of you, no problem.  Otherwise, after 10:00 AM the next week for you!  So, stay up with the group in front of you OR play within pace and your group is fine.

6.  The tee sheet with the starting time and finishing time of each group is POSTED in the golf shop and locker room at the end of each weekend day

7.  We have regular clocks on holes 1, 10 and 18 telling you the exact time.

8.  I have 4 "Pace Clocks" on holes 4, 8, 12 and 16 that are set backwards so that each time you come to a silver pace clock, the time should be the time you teed off.  If you get to a pace clock and you had teed off at 9:00 and it says 9:05, you are behind!

9.  We do have marshals on the course in addition to the starter but they are in my opinion, the leat effective tool.  Plus, most people just ignore them or complain that they aren't "doing enough".

The reception by 95% of the members is great and they love that we are "actually doing something about slow play".  The other 5%, well they are the slowpokes

And a follow-up post of his in the same thread:

David,

I do select my lead groups to some degree and it does seem like the guys who like to tee off at 7:00 AM also like to play fast and enjoy the rest of the day.  My lead foursome almost always is done in 3:30.  My problem is my 8:30-9:00 groups and some of the guys are older.  My course is hilly and part of the "leniency" is due to not wanting to be too harsh. 

If I can keep everyone before 10:00 at 4:10 or better, I usually have a small break and and enough of a lull such that when the 12:00 gang comes with their game they too can easily play in 4:10.  I call it a good day if I do 150 rounds and the later groups all play within 4:20.

As you know, if you have group after group you inevitabley "lose" a little time with each successive group--akin to finishing laundry and losing one sock I guess!

I am pretty vigilant and our pre 10:00 groups do make a very good effort not to lose their times on the weekends.  Also posting of the tee sheet in the locker room is second only to the past due accounts list in terms of member interest and reading!  Nothing is better than having the members come in and (good naturedly but seriously) give a slow group the business about holding up the course and the posting has it up there in black and white.

While the clock is a nice idea, I think the real key here is incentivizing fast play with better tee times.  Over time, this will help solve the problems because the slow players will be weeded out of the most important times.

I tried to talk my home course (public access) into something similar a number of years ago, to no avail, but they do somewhat control the pace by selecting their early groups.

[Chuck Brown]

I've seen these clock schemes around for almost ten years.  I like the idea.  I think it helps.  The problem is, the clocks just rub it in when you are waiting on every tee for the group in front. 

For the purposes of most public courses, with wall-to-wall golfers at most hours when it matters, it takes a ranger with the authority/confidence/guts to tell a group that has fallen behind, to "pick up, and go to the tee behind the group in front."

But part of the battle for faster play is knowledge and awareness by the players.  The back-set clocks are one of the easiest and most practical ways to do that.  I am all in favor.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is just another example of information pollution.  It is more grease on the slippery slope that will eventually make golf indistinguishable from video games.

[Kalen Braley]

I've also seen this on at least one course as well...but it must still ultimately be enforced to make it work. In this case, it worked fine because the marshalls only had to make thier presence known and it avoided most confrontations as just seeing them meant looking at the clock to ensure complianance.

Slow groups that are beligerently so will always need to be dealt with a heavy hand.  And hopefully they will either learn to speed it up or choose not to come back out of not wanting to be pestered.  In the long run its a win for the course because compliant groups are the only ones out there.

[John Kavanaugh]

Since the goal seems to be to train all golfers into playing at the exact same speed...why not dial the time from 4:13 back one minute a year?  By 2021 golf will only take 4 hours and no one will know the difference.

[DMoriarty]

John I too have concerns with the clock, and wonder if it doesnt encourage some to play that fast but not  a second faster.  I would probably prefer to leave it up to the golfers to figure out how to get them around the course.   But I am all for the idea denying them a prime tee time if they cannot accomplish this.

[A.G._Crockett]

This is just another example of information pollution.  It is more grease on the slippery slope that will eventually make golf indistinguishable from video games.

As always, John, I'm sure make an excellent point here, or you wouldn't have taken the time to post.  And, as always, I have no earthly idea what you mean, even after taking the time to read it twice.

Let me know when you find something you like; it would be refreshing.

[A.G._Crockett]

Here is the way Chris described his system a while back in another thread on pace of play:

FWIW, here is what I do--my club is an active fully private club that did 37,000 rounds last year.

1.  Our course was pace rated by the GSGA at 4 hours and 3 minutes--this assumes 90 rule and 4 average golfers from the regular mens' tees.

2.  Our club target MAX time is 4 hours and 10 minutes on weekends.  I point out this is like giving each group an extra 1/2 hole "cushion" and the GSGA pace rating already includes 7 minutes at the turn for a snack.

3.  I tee off one tee on weekends (crossovers are a killer and never really work) and I moved from 8 to 10 minute tee time intervals.

4.  The starter on the first hole notes the time the first ball is in the air and since 18 green is near by he also notes the time the flagstick goes back in the hole on 18.

5.  The first weekend group on the tee sheet that fails to play within 4 hours 10 minutes can not tee off the next weekend before 10:00 AM.  For all other groups, as long as you play within 4 hrs, 10min OR finish within 15 minutes of the group in front of you, no problem.  Otherwise, after 10:00 AM the next week for you!  So, stay up with the group in front of you OR play within pace and your group is fine.

6.  The tee sheet with the starting time and finishing time of each group is POSTED in the golf shop and locker room at the end of each weekend day

7.  We have regular clocks on holes 1, 10 and 18 telling you the exact time.

8.  I have 4 "Pace Clocks" on holes 4, 8, 12 and 16 that are set backwards so that each time you come to a silver pace clock, the time should be the time you teed off.  If you get to a pace clock and you had teed off at 9:00 and it says 9:05, you are behind!

9.  We do have marshals on the course in addition to the starter but they are in my opinion, the leat effective tool.  Plus, most people just ignore them or complain that they aren't "doing enough".

The reception by 95% of the members is great and they love that we are "actually doing something about slow play".  The other 5%, well they are the slowpokes

And a follow-up post of his in the same thread:

David,

I do select my lead groups to some degree and it does seem like the guys who like to tee off at 7:00 AM also like to play fast and enjoy the rest of the day.  My lead foursome almost always is done in 3:30.  My problem is my 8:30-9:00 groups and some of the guys are older.  My course is hilly and part of the "leniency" is due to not wanting to be too harsh. 

If I can keep everyone before 10:00 at 4:10 or better, I usually have a small break and and enough of a lull such that when the 12:00 gang comes with their game they too can easily play in 4:10.  I call it a good day if I do 150 rounds and the later groups all play within 4:20.

As you know, if you have group after group you inevitabley "lose" a little time with each successive group--akin to finishing laundry and losing one sock I guess!

I am pretty vigilant and our pre 10:00 groups do make a very good effort not to lose their times on the weekends.  Also posting of the tee sheet in the locker room is second only to the past due accounts list in terms of member interest and reading!  Nothing is better than having the members come in and (good naturedly but seriously) give a slow group the business about holding up the course and the posting has it up there in black and white.

While the clock is a nice idea, I think the real key here is incentivizing fast play with better tee times.  Over time, this will help solve the problems because the slow players will be weeded out of the most important times.

I tried to talk my home course (public access) into something similar a number of years ago, to no avail, but they do somewhat control the pace by selecting their early groups.

Thanks for finding this.  I was pretty sure I had seen an explanation by Chris before, but didn't take the time to search it out.   Plus, today was the first time I have seen this particular system.  I loved it.

[Jim Sweeney]

You may not believe this. A public course in Cincinnati gave up on this system because the playeres in the "old guys" league kept taking down the clocks and resetting them to the correct time. They just couldn't grasp the concept. True story.

Chris Cupit is playing in the US Am qualifier today at the Camargo Club. Check out his results at GCGA.org or USGA.org tomorrow.

[A.G._Crockett]

You may not believe this. A public course in Cincinnati gave up on this system because the playeres in the "old guys" league kept taking down the clocks and resetting them to the correct time. They just couldn't grasp the concept. True story.

Chris Cupit is playing in the US Am qualifier today at the Camargo Club. Check out his results at GCGA.org or USGA.org tomorrow.

Jim,
Funny story, and something I wondered about.

Do you mean tomorrow for the US Am qualifier?  Chris was still here in Atlanta at noon today; he would have had to have an awfully late tee time to play in Ohio.

[Jim Sweeney]

A.G.:

Just rechecked and he had an 8:40 off #1 this morning. There are no Chris Cupits around here and I know he can play, and it being Camago, I figured it was him. Maybe he WD'd.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G., et al:

Any system is fine but the key is getting management to keep up with it day after day and make sure it's enforced for all groups.

If management were to staff and orientate staff properly as to the usual choke points the nature of what slow play does would likely be eliminated.

Candidly, some people need to be given their money back when they become totally uncooperative. For those who are regulars denyign access to prime tee times is a great motivator to keep things moving.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is just another example of information pollution.  It is more grease on the slippery slope that will eventually make golf indistinguishable from video games.

As always, John, I'm sure make an excellent point here, or you wouldn't have taken the time to post.  And, as always, I have no earthly idea what you mean, even after taking the time to read it twice.

Let me know when you find something you like; it would be refreshing.

AG,

Please name one rule, sign or electronic gadget that is needed to enjoy a round of golf if you are a member of a club full of like minded courteous respectful golfers.  I like a nice quiet day free of information pollution and artificial standards of etiquette.

[JohnV]

John I too have concerns with the clock, and wonder if it doesnt encourage some to play that fast but not  a second faster.  I would probably prefer to leave it up to the golfers to figure out how to get them around the course.   But I am all for the idea denying them a prime tee time if they cannot accomplish this.

David,

This is an interesting thought.  We use the Group Pace of Play in NCGA events.  We also print the time that the group must finish each hole by to be sure of avoiding a penalty.  I recently changed the wording on the score so that instead of saying "Time to Finish" it now says "Latest Time to Finish"  I also print all these times in Red so that it stands out.  I don't know if it works, but my last group at yesterday's US Am qualifier finished the first round in 4:05 and the second round in 3:55 when they had a 4:30 allowed pace.  A world record at US Am qualifying of less than 11 hours from first swing until last for my groups.

[Wayne_Kozun]

My golf club has had this system in place for at least 9 years - which is when I joined the club.

[Joey Smith]

If a group comes in over the pace of play limit (4 hrs., 13 min., I think...) AND are more than 15 min. behind the group ahead of them, they lose the right to an early tee time the next weekend! 

Finally, management makes sure that the early groups know that they are expected to play BELOW the max of 4:13.  The result is that they not only tend to do so, but want to know how much below pace they were when they get in.

Very cool stuff, to which I see no downside.

Thank you VERY much!  This is a wonderful idea!  Any idea much the system costs?

This is too cool!  I love it!  

Meg  

It's not a system it's just 4 clocks.  And I would never belong to a   members club that had pace clocks on it.  Daily fee - yes. country club - I don't think so...