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[Brent Hutto]

The shots that can be played in most situations are legion. However, for a player of a given level of ability there is frequently a situation where "legion" translates into one shot he can play if he's keeping score and a whole bunch of others he can play if he's an idiot.

Sure a hypothetical 80-year-old won't play a high spinner from 130 yards (unless maybe it's the 80-year-old Phil Mickelson one day). But a non-hypothetical Chip Gaskins does not have some palette of high, low, left, right, fourteen different clubs equally valid and interchangeable shot choices in the situation described here. He needs to execute pretty much the shot Shiv is describing or else he's just screwing around and not really playing golf. I don't see any howling winds or rock-hard turf in the picture and there's no decent, healthy, young player in the world with any business not spinning the ball in there. Heck, from his description of the lie it was if anything helpful to the shot assuming he recognized it and aimed accordingly.

And there ain't a thing "unstrategic" or inferior about a course just because it lets someone who can drive it to within 130 yards in the middle of the fairway play a stock high, spinning wedge that has to be perfectly executed to get close to the hole. We all know the now-familiar list of safer vs. riskier plays from three clubs further out or from the right fairway/rough/trees (depending on the year you play it). But this is not one of those times, this is the time to gird your loins and execute a precise shot where the "creativity" involved is in touch, feel and judgement...not in deciding whether to pull a putter, wedge or mid-iron.

[George Pazin]

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

Hate to nitpick, but I still disagree. I believe Bob & Ali wanted 80 year olds to be able to play thoughtfully; I don't think they wanted him to only be able to hit a hard spinner or accept bogey.

George, that's fine, but for HIM, from THERE, with THAT lie, there was just ONE shot.  He even says so....

I can accept that he believes that.

[Dschmidt]

My point is that for you, Shivas, and others, "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left" might seem like the only option, but for others it might not even be within the realm of possibility.   

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

Dave, see what I said to George.  For Chip, there's one shot. 

I'll grant that people of lesser abilities might have to do something else.

But you don't want to hear that because you want everyone to be pondering, looking for those phantom mirage options, on every shot.

You might want to wrap your arms around this: 

the better players are more one dimensional because that one dimension WORKS! 

I guess when I go to the store and buy something for an even hundo, I could flop 400 quarters on the counter, but I've found that a C-Note works better.

I guess I could go home today via a 3-stop CTA bus transfer, but I've found that the straight shot Metra train to Wilmette works better.

And I guess I could try to hold a cut and bunt 6 iron against the hook lie that lands well short and runs in, but I've found that from 130 in the center of the fairway to a right to left green with water left and lots of room right, the hard spinning shot works better AND has the added benefit of taking that back bunker out of play if my strategery-induced running cut 6 iron from a hook lie runs too far on those ultra slick greens.

sheesh!

[George Pazin]

And there ain't a thing "unstrategic" or inferior about a course just because it lets someone who can drive it to within 130 yards in the middle of the fairway play a stock high, spinning wedge that has to be perfectly executed to get close to the hole. We all know the now-familiar list of safer vs. riskier plays from three clubs further out or from the right fairway/rough/trees (depending on the year you play it). But this is not one of those times, this is the time to gird your loins and execute a precise shot where the "creativity" involved is in touch, feel and judgement...not in deciding whether to pull a putter, wedge or mid-iron.

Your tone seems to imply I'm criticising Augusta; I'm trying to praise it for allowing other shots. Imagine if the course were like many others and had bunkers fronting the green, or a big stream or pond right in front of it.

Every shot requires manning up and executing, once the decision has been made. Not every course allows golfers with different skill sets to compete on a relatively level playing field (no pun intended).

Again, I am not criticising Chip's play or decision - I am trying to highlight a fundamental difference in the approach to design or evaluating design. When one considers that a certain situation DEMANDS a particular shot, one tends to design or evaluate in such a fashion as well.

[George Pazin]

You might want to wrap your arms around this: 

the better players are more one dimensional because that one dimension WORKS! 

A very interesting point, which begs the question: If more courses were designed like TOC, would one dimensional golf prevail?

[Chip Gaskins]

George-

yes, there was a hidden pot bunker in the middle of the fairway on 11.  in the opening round of ANGC Bobby Jones played with his dad (who was a supposed hard ass Army officer) who hit it in the bunker and turned to Bobby and said "who put that god da&m bunker there" and evidently it was removed the next day.

i also don't think there was a real pond beside 11, it was more of a ditch to the back left of the green site.

plus the greens rolled 8-9, not 12-13.

playing from the masters tees i would not have been able to reach the green probably.  more like a 3 wood/hybrid...i would have laid up.

again, 9 iron is the shot out the right.  i guarantee you could stand there with a shag bag and not get one close to the hole putting (or running) it.

DMoriaty-

the guy that I played with is British and putts from anywhere inside a 100 yards (bunkers, rough, you name it)...and does it very well.  he didn't do it all at ANGC....the greens are too fast.  period.  and that was his 5th round there.

if the greens were not so fast then it brings so many more options in to play.  but at those speeds i don't see how anything but a wedge with spin is the shot to play.  don't get me wrong, i would much rather it be like TOC where you have a bunch of options, but you don't.

again, we have all watch the masters for decades...tell me who remembers anyone putting the ball from short right on 11.

[George Pazin]

George-

yes, there was a hidden pot bunker in the middle of the fairway on 11.  in the opening round of ANGC Bobby Jones played with his dad (who was a supposed hard ass Army officer) who hit it in the bunker and turned to Bobby and said "who put that god da&m bunker there" and evidently it was removed the next day.

i also don't think there was a real pond beside 11, it was more of a ditch to the back left of the green site.

...

i guarantee you could stand there with a shag bag and not get one close to the hole putting (or running) it.

Thanks for the historical info.

I'd be happy to try putting from there all day.

[Kalen Braley]

It must be GCA.com when you have pages of discussion based around one slightly tugged short iron shot!!!

I suspect if he had tugged a bump and run 6 iron, or tugged his putter it could have also gone in the water.

Why can't a bad result be simply explained by poor execution!!

As a high capper myself, I frequently try to play to the safest part of the green or fairway, yet often still find a way to hit in the gunch/water/tall stuff/crap.

[DMoriarty]

Brett

I don't think octogenarians are hypothetical at Augusta . . . are they? 

Brett, Chip, and Shivas,

It seems at the beginning the point was that this was a "green light" and there was one proper "green light" shot from this position.  That has evolved into for this particular player with his particular skill set (including a number of variables such as distance control, distance judgment, the ability to spin it a lot out of uncut fairways and put a "draw ground spin on the ball")  with this particular grass type and this particular frost delay resulting in this particular grass length and this particular lie and these particular wind conditions and this particular ground firmness and this golfer's particular goal of keeping score (as opposed to matchplay?) and this particular golfer's judgment of a "green light" situation and this particular hanging lie and this particular green speed and slope, there is only one shot.

And your conclusion is that this is somehow a one dimensional shot?   That golf is brainless?  That variables are not weighed and choices are not made?  Interesting analysis, but entirely unconvincing.   

You started by generalizing from Chip's specific situation, but to try to support your generalization you have backed-tracked right back into a circumstance that is unique to Chip, therefor rendering your own generalization completely meaningless. 

_____________________

Chip,  how in the world do you know, or think you know, when putting is the right play for me?   

[Brent Hutto]

George,

You are right, ANGC is superior to many other courses for the options it still offers on many shots. Given the "toughening up" it has endured of late, most other tournament courses would by now by nigh unplayable even from the up tees. It's a marvel how much of its original value endures.

Dave M,

Well, it's hardly specific to Chip. I'd say that's a "green light" shot to a huge range of players. Even a bogey golfer who bunts the ball around like I do (and lefty to boot) would only have to play a moderately conservative 7-iron short and well right in that circumstance (which BTW I could only experience for a third shot, not being able to drive it anywhere near that far from even the member's tees I'm sure).

[George Pazin]

Why can't a bad result be simply explained by poor execution!!

It's not a matter of explaining it - it's a matter of addressing the supposed demands of a shot. As I said repeatedly, I'm not questioning his decision or even execution, I am questioning the approach and its implications for architecture.

[Chip Gaskins]

DMoriarty-

Dude, why the hostility toward me.?  Where did I say anything about when YOU should or should not putt.  I was making general statements about the conditions and why putting IMO would be a very bad decision (and listed all the reasons why).  If you think you can putt that ball close to pin, be my guest, give it a go, but given I have never seen ANYONE for 25 years of watching the Masters (in person and on TV) try and putt from that location, including Seve, Crenshaw, etc I assume (though I didn't say it in my posts) you specifically couldn't do it either.  Maybe you can?

Listen I am not about trying to make things harder than they should be...it was a freakin 130 yard shot in the center of the fairway to a benign pin.  I hit the shot I thought I could get closest and I pulled it a few yards and made 7.  Faced with that shot again, I do the same thing 10 out of 10 times.  I just hit a bad shot.  I must just not be smart enough or good enough to have the imagination to try the running shot when the situation doesn't call for it.

What in the world is a octogenarians anyway?

[DMoriarty]

Dave M,

Well, it's hardly specific to Chip. I'd say that's a "green light" shot to a huge range of players. Even a bogey golfer who bunts the ball around like I do (and lefty to boot) would only have to play a moderately conservative 7-iron short and well right in that circumstance (which BTW I could only experience for a third shot, not being able to drive it anywhere near that far from even the member's tees I'm sure).

Brent.  Your short-right seven iron exactly makes my point.   This is not one-shot-fits-all architecture.   For most golfers Shivas and Chip might as well be speaking Swahili when they start talking about how the only shot is "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left." 

[Kalen Braley]

Why can't a bad result be simply explained by poor execution!!

It's not a matter of explaining it - it's a matter of addressing the supposed demands of a shot. As I said repeatedly, I'm not questioning his decision or even execution, I am questioning the approach and its implications for architecture.

George,

I wasn't trying to single anyone out, but more trying to make the point that even the best, most well thought out pre-shot plans can go awful if one doesn't execute.

In this case, it sounds like Chip had a good plan, and just hit a poor shot as he explained.  I'm sure any other well thought out plan of attack could have just as easily resulted in a watery grave as well, unless playing ultra-conservative and aiming for the fringe right of the green.

[Chip Gaskins]

There are a lot of adjectives in this quote: "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left."

I would also describe this shot as a standard wedge from the middle of the fairway to the middle of the green.  That seems like something a high handicapper could do?  no?  it certainly sounds easier that some running 7 iron that flies 70 yards, land 40 yards short of the green, traverses three tall mounds and trickles onto a 13 speed green.  but to each his own.

[George Pazin]

Giving up.

People wonder why architectural threads tend to die on the vine.

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty-

Dude, why the hostility toward me.?  Where did I say anything about when YOU should or should not putt.  I was making general statements about the conditions and why putting IMO would be a very bad decision (and listed all the reasons why).  If you think you can putt that ball close to pin, be my guest, give it a go, but given I have never seen ANYONE for 25 years of watching the Masters (in person and on TV) try and putt from that location, including Seve, Crenshaw, etc I assume (though I didn't say it in my posts) you specifically couldn't do it either.  Maybe you can?

Listen I am not about trying to make things harder than they should be...it was a freakin 130 yard shot in the center of the fairway to a benign pin.  I hit the shot I thought I could get closest and I pulled it a few yards and made 7.  Faced with that shot again, I do the same thing 10 out of 10 times.  I just hit a bad shot.  I must just not be smart enough or good enough to have the imagination to try the running shot when the situation doesn't call for it.

What in the world is a octogenarians anyway?

Chip,  no hostility meant at all.  Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was at all taking this discussion seriously or personally.  I tend to be flippant and glib around Shivas, who is an idiot, so maybe that explains it. 

Also, as I said above, I am not sure I would putt in that situation.   I just brought it up as an extreme example of the variety of possibilities presented to golfers who might find themselves in this particular situation.     It sure looks like a fun putt though.

My questions and comments have been intended to point out that while you and others are writing generally, you appear to be considering only a certain type of player and an certain skill level when assessing the best way to play that hole.    That is not the way quality architecture works.

When I play a hole, all I have is my own game to work with, same as you.  I cannot necessarily dial up the shot you or Shivas might think is proper.   I sometimes have to do some pretty unconventional things,  and I have putted from from some places that I am sure would seem insane for many golfers, with varying degrees of success.   But I'd bet that for me when I seriously (as opposed to practicing or screwing around) go with putter from long range that it is probably the odds-on best decision for me.   

I enjoyed what I saw of the  British Open in part because of how comfortable Harrington seemed while hitting shots that one would never see on the PGA Tour.    He was not held by the mindset that seems to grip so many American golfers.  Especially good ones. 

An octogenarian is 80-something years old. 

There are a lot of adjectives in this quote: "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left."

I would also describe this shot as a standard wedge from the middle of the fairway to the middle of the green.  That seems like something a high handicapper could do?  no?  it certainly sounds easier that some running 7 iron that flies 70 yards, land 40 yards short of the green, traverses three tall mounds and trickles onto a 13 speed green.  but to each his own.

No.  From the picture and description it doesn't seem easier to me.   With a hanging fade lie and that shaved bank, I'll stick as close to the ground as I can, thank you.   

The quote was Shivas' description of how to play the hole.     

[Adam Clayman]

I must just not be smart enough or good enough to have the imagination to try the running shot when the situation doesn't call for it.

See those humps well short and on the right?

To say this HOLE precludes a bump and run have got to be the saddest words ever written.

[Phil Benedict]

My recall of the hole is that it flattens out the closer you get to the greens, so using the humps to propel the ball forward is problematical at best.

[Dschmidt]

Perhaps it's just me, but I have found over the years that landing shots on downslopes is an excellent way to numerically maximize one's score. 

[DMoriarty]

Perhaps it's just me, but I have found over the years that landing shots on downslopes is an excellent way to numerically maximize one's score. 

Maybe you should try landing on downslopes which are short of your intended target.   Miraculously, the ball tends to go forward.

[Dschmidt]

..and keep going into the hell over the green that the architect duped you into thinking you were taking out of play... 

[Mike Benham]

the better players are more one dimensional because that one dimension WORKS! 

or more specifically, "... because that one dimension is repeatable and predictable"

[Chip Gaskins]

this will be my last post on this, but i just found the whole series that produced the 7 on #11.  it shows a larger picture of the mounds to the right of the green and the impossible drop shot.  anyway you add it up, i hit a slightly pulled 9 iron that spun left and back into the water and lead to crappy 7.  hey, at least i got to see how the wind messed with the tee shots of 3 guys hitting before me on #12 tee.

actually looking at the pictures i can see that the mounds on the front right don't look nearly as big as they play.

and no, i don't have that many pictures of the round...the guy i was playing with just broke his camera out on 11 and after he made a 9 on 12 he put his camera back in his bag.

This is green light time!


Wedge or 9 Iron?


It sure looked good in the air!


Standing over the drop and laughing with the caddie about how hard the shot is..


I am trying to nip it and spin it as much as possible to clear the water but hold the green

[Kirk Gill]

Chip, it's been most interesting reading about how you played this course. An uncommon privelege for me to read.

That said, what's your feeling on the original question of this thread - How would an architectural numbskull think, or not, his way around the course?   

[Chip Gaskins]

Kirk-

Well hopefully you are not saying I am a numbskull as I think I have added numerous thoughtful comments on how exactly how ANGC plays on a day to day basis...but I am putting my kids to bed and will log in later to give a download from a "numbskull" basis.

Chip-

[Kirk Gill]

Chip, perhaps I wasn't clear.

I've read how you played the course, and I really enjoyed it. But you aren't a numbskull. That's why I feel like the question hasn't been answered. My own feeling is that an architectural numbskull would play the course scared. Maybe not off the tee, but certainly on and around those greens !

[Tim Bert]

I did know about your go at 16 at CPC, but you are in good company, there are other GCA'ers who have taken that route as well!!   

I heard from a respected source that the shot was "exhilarating."  Well, maybe not so much, but there's something to be said for sticking to one's plan and accomplishing one's goals.

[Kalen Braley]

I did know about your go at 16 at CPC, but you are in good company, there are other GCA'ers who have taken that route as well!!   

I heard from a respected source that the shot was "exhilarating."  Well, maybe not so much, but there's something to be said for sticking to one's plan and accomplishing one's goals.

Tim,

You are indeed a man with a plan, which is more that I can say for myself!!  

And as far as layups go, the one at 16 is certainly one of most exhilirating that I can think of!!

[DMoriarty]

I did know about your go at 16 at CPC, but you are in good company, there are other GCA'ers who have taken that route as well!!   

I heard from a respected source that the shot was "exhilarating."  Well, maybe not so much, but there's something to be said for sticking to one's plan and accomplishing one's goals.

For me the layup was indeed thrilling.  It is CPC 16, and just being there is a thrill in-and-of itself.   And it is a pretty exciting shot as layups go-- the ocean is still there, and so is the wind.  I shudder even now when I consider the grief I would have been given had I decided to lay up and then still dumped it into the ocean! 

Plus, there was something very exciting about playing one of the greatest holes on earth as intended-- considering the options, deciding the best one for the circumstances, and then successfully playing the shot.   

I am sure I will be further crucified for saying so, but I feel sorry for those who just go with the knee-jerk I didn't come all the way to CPC  16 to lay up! mentality.   This attitude greatly diminishes a large part of the thrill of the hole.

[Brent Hutto]

The day I played the sixteenth at Cypress Point the breeze was from the right and hurting. I think unless I caught a lull in the wind the carry was bordering on impossible for me even with a driver. Plus even after butchering fourteen I had just parred fifteen and was playing to my handicap or better (i.e. it felt like I was shooting a good score by my standards). So once I asked for and received the carry yardage the thought of going for it never crossed my mind.

At that point my all-consuming goal became to make a three on the hole one way or another. I hit a fairway wood to the absolute deepest part of the "fairway" which was not a trivial accomplishment because it was downwind. Then a beautiful punched 6-iron that started out at the right edge of the green and finished 10 feet from the hole. Our caddies gave me the read as right edge and get it to the hole with some pace on it. I did the former but not the latter and lipped out on the left side. One of the caddies said "you never gave it a chance" and that was that.

I found it a perfectly thrilling 15 minutes, even without visiting the beach below as one of my playing companions did.

[DMoriarty]

Brent, great story.  Much more interesting than, "The wind was howling but I figured I'll never be here again, so I grabbed a wood and smashed it into the rocks.  Three times."

On my first lay up there, I also punched a pretty good second and missed a makable par putt.  I'd much rather have made it, but it was exciting to have a chance at par the safe way. 

I was playing a match, and unfortunately lost the hole to par, but to a guy who also laid up.