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[John Kavanaugh]

David is a left handed style golfer and I have seen him hit similar shots at Rustic Canyon.  It is easier to fade a putter than to draw.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Your forgetting one very huge aspect of Chips situation.  It'll likely be his only chance to play the course.  Why wouldn't he go for it from 130 yards?  He's supposed to layup?

Its like getting a rare invite to CPC and then laying up on 15 to the ladies tees because you don't think you can manage the 115 yard carry to the green.  Or laying up on 16 for that matter!!    Give it a go, live a little!!

You can't remove the fun or risk component to interfacing the architecture all the time, especially when it may be one's only chance to play the course.

Perhaps if its your home clubs championship, you play a little safer......

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,

The best way to make three or even two is to aim at the middle of the bunker and not at the pin.  Chip is in great company screwing that shot up...I bet even Hogan learned the hard way.

[DMoriarty]

Maybe we'll practice the putter draw on #5 at Merion...has anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole???

I don't know that anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole . . . before you of course.  Can I quote you on that?

Merion 5 would be a great place for the long putt, given how beautifully the green and the fairway meld together.  Hopefully this will still be the case after the changes to the green for the US Open. 

While I would never think of such a thing, it would be a good place for me to practice . . . given that it is a across the road, maybe I could avoid getting shot, arrested, or both.

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?

John,

Your forgetting one very huge aspect of Chips situation.  It'll likely be his only chance to play the course.  Why wouldn't he go for it from 130 yards?  He's supposed to layup?

Its like getting a rare invite to CPC and then laying up on 15 to the ladies tees because you don't think you can manage the 115 yard carry to the green.  Or laying up on 16 for that matter!!    Give it a go, live a little!!

You can't remove the fun or risk component to interfacing the architecture all the time, especially when it may be one's only chance to play the course.

Perhaps if its your home clubs championship, you play a little safer......

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he not go for the green, just that he might consider playing a bit right of the pin.  Even in Jed Peters "green light" situation above, he is starting his shot at the middle of the back right bunker.

As for CPC 15, is it possible to layup to the women's tee?  I'll have to try that.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I just checked the aerials....its just a little flip wedge up to the tees even though its a blind shot over the trees!!   

Back to ANGC #11.  Even if it is a tucked pin left, why not still have a go for it.  Think of the thrill of sticking one close, even converting a birdie.  Think of the stories you could tell your kids and grandkids when they are all sitting around watching the Masters and the pros are puking on themsleves on that hole.  And could say you stuck one close to that dastardly pin position and made birdie when you had your shot!!!

I'm not seeing the glory to telling the kids, I played it safe and made my two putt par!! 

[DMoriarty]

David,

I just checked the aerials....its just a little flip wedge up to the tees even though its a blind shot over the trees!!   

Back to ANGC #11.  Even if it is a tucked pin left, why not still have a go for it.  Think of the thrill of sticking one close, even converting a birdie.  Think of the stories you could tell your kids and grandkids when they are all sitting around watching the Masters and the pros are puking on themsleves on that hole.  And could say you stuck one close to that dastardly pin position and made birdie when you had your shot!!!

I'm not seeing the glory to telling the kids, I played it safe and made my two putt par!! 

Kalen it just looks to me like, with this shot, there are many more ways than one.   The aggressive line seems a sucker's line, especially for a sucker of my ability.  I would have a much better chance of making a birdie by playing right and safe, then making a slightly longer putt.

But Kalen, you probably know that I did famously lay up left on the 16th at CPC, and am pleased to have had the will power to have done it.  So I doubt you will convince me that the aggressive line is always the best choice, even in a once in a lifetime situation.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Its hard to know what the right line was on 11 without knowing exactly where that pin was.  If it was all the way to the left next to the water, then yes I could very well see it being a sucker pin.  However with 130 in I think its more sane that say 180 in which is just insane.

I did know about your go at 16 at CPC, but you are in good company, there are other GCA'ers who have taken that route as well!!   

[Jim Sullivan]

David is a left handed style golfer and I have seen him hit similar shots at Rustic Canyon.  It is easier to fade a putter than to draw.

I know!

[Jim Sullivan]

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?

I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

[John Kavanaugh]

[/quote]

How much more information do you need on where the pin is?  Who is taking this picture...the caddie?

[DMoriarty]

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?

I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   

[John Kirk]

JK, it's hard for me to compare the Augusta greens with Ballyneal or any other course I know well.  From watching television it appears Augusta's greens are really great; watching the putting there is very interesting.  My guess is the pros make the putting look easier than it really is, and that the greens are  extremely sloped for the greens speeds, with somewhat less complicated contouring than Ballyneal or other great modern courses.

I could be wrong. 

[Chip Gaskins]

My buddy is taking the picture.

There was a huge frost delay that day and they did not mow the fairways that morning, so the rye was long and sticky and putting from a slow rye fringe/fairway onto the a sheet of glass green ain't exactly easy.

And again, 130 with a pin in the middle of the green is as green light situation as it gets.  i just didn't pull the shot off.

I have never seen a pro putt from too far off that green.  You can't believe how fast the green is and how much your ball is pulled to the water. Larry Mize chipped it!

As for Merion #5.  I had about 40 yards in on my third shot a few weeks ago and happily putted it due to the firm and tight fairways.  (i.e. no rye grass or lake to run into)

[Jim Sullivan]

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?

I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   

You try hitting it back in after dropping to the left...virtually impossible...

[Dschmidt]

the real mistake i made was to not take the slight uphill lie i had into consideration that was just enough to make me tug it left.

I would have bet a bunch on that.  It's easy to do with short irons...

DaveM:  green light means you try to get it close. Here, precisely because of the lie and the green break, that means aim it at the left center of the bunker with a slight draw, and try to ground hook it close.  If the lie was flat, and the green didn't break a little left, you take dead aim....there are chances for offense and places for defense.  To score, you have to take your shots on offense.  And you have to have the discipline to play like a puss when on defense.

Let me give you an example:  CPC #16....as you more than anybody knows,    , that's not a good hole to play Brett Farve on.  Better to play nose tackle.

[DMoriarty]

My buddy is taking the picture.

There was a huge frost delay that day and they did not mow the fairways that morning, so the rye was long and sticky and putting from a slow rye fringe/fairway onto the a sheet of glass green ain't exactly easy.

And again, 130 with a pin in the middle of the green is as green light situation as it gets.  i just didn't pull the shot off.

I have never seen a pro putt from too far off that green.  You can't believe how fast the green is and how much your ball is pulled to the water. Larry Mize chipped it!

As for Merion #5.  I had about 40 yards in on my third shot a few weeks ago and happily putted it due to the firm and tight fairways.  (i.e. no rye grass or lake to run into)

I thought the grass looked long, but was thinking with the grass cut tighter as I have heard it is normally.   In truth, 130 yards might be a little out of my range for the putter.  I've never made one beyond 100 yards.   But from the looks of that angle and hill it sure would be tempting to try.   

As for Merion, there is supposed to be a creek/ditch on the left somewhere, but it may be insulated by a wide strip of thick rough.  Imagine how much fun the shot would be if the ball could run off the green and into the hazard. 

__________________________

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?

I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   

You try hitting it back in after dropping to the left...virtually impossible...

Yes that is the way I remember it, which is why I found the bit about the creek being played as water hazard so interesting.  With the rough as it is now, it seems impossible that it is still played this way.  I suppose one could go back all the way back on the line to the fourth fairway but with those big trees grown in, even this is probably practically impossible. 

The same article gave the impression that it was very common for golfer to end up in the hazard by the green.  Makes me wonder about how the course has changed over the years.  Imagine how different the hole must have been to allow for such a drop.

________________________________

DaveM:  green light means you try to get it close. Here, precisely because of the lie and the green break, that means aim it at the left center of the bunker with a slight draw, and try to ground hook it close.  If the lie was flat, and the green didn't break a little left, you take dead aim....there are chances for offense and places for defense.  To score, you have to take your shots on offense.  And you have to have the discipline to play like a puss when on defense.

Let me give you an example:  CPC #16....as you more than anybody knows,    , that's not a good hole to play Brett Farve on.  Better to play nose tackle.

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.

[Jim Sullivan]

David,

This is only a guess, but it can be difficult to find a drop zone on the green-side "no closer to the hole" when the creek runs parallel to the green...perhaps this rule was put in to reduce conflict...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not in the camp of intellectuals who think that few golfers consider architecture when playing. 


So, it's your theory that golfers ignore bunker, creeks, ponds, deep rough and the like when playing ?

So, taking the course best known to each one of us, assuming we are playing from the member tees where hazards and risk reward are in play, what do you think is in the mind of the golfer who does not consider architecture.

Could you name me five (5) golfers who don't see or ignore bunkers, creeks, ponds, deep rough and the like ?

Please save your pithy attemps at humor.

Let's take the most simple and perhaps most famous shot, the tee ball on 12 to a back right Sunday pin.

How can a golfer hit that shot and not consider the architecture of the hole?

Unless he's playing at midnight, he can't.

The architecture/architectural features send all of the tactical signals required for the golfer to understand the circumstances surrounding the shot at hand.

Has anyone bothered to notice the slope of the fairway where Chip's ball lies ?
Will that influence his swing, aim and choice of clubs ?

[Dschmidt]

DaveM:  green light means you try to get it close. Here, precisely because of the lie and the green break, that means aim it at the left center of the bunker with a slight draw, and try to ground hook it close.  If the lie was flat, and the green didn't break a little left, you take dead aim....there are chances for offense and places for defense.  To score, you have to take your shots on offense.  And you have to have the discipline to play like a puss when on defense.

Let me give you an example:  CPC #16....as you more than anybody knows,    , that's not a good hole to play Brett Farve on.  Better to play nose tackle.

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.

David, No there isn't.  Not from 130 yards with a green that slopes right to left off a draw lie.  That is a green light high draw shot with wedge.  That is the only way.  You're in strategery fantasy land again! 

This is not a bunt 5.  Not a cut pitch 8 iron.  It's none of this other goofy stuff you actually believe might be better than the clear and obvious shot --  a high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin.  Maybe Eldrick can hit a punch cut 8 iron toward the water off that lie, and four-hop it in there, but the rest of the world needs to be realistic, throw the ball in the air to the right, spin it (as much as possible) back to the left -- and play the aerial game there.   

[Chip Gaskins]

Shivas- You are exactly right.  The shot couldn't be much more straight-forward.  I just didn't hit a good shot.

DMoriarty-
Again, concerning ANGC, the rye grass is so sticky and the greens are so fast you just can't run balls along the ground and have any distance control.  You have to fly them onto the green with spin. 

Now if you played in firm bermuda grass conditions then you could actually run a few shots onto the green but with sticky rye grass, especially on 11 with those front right mounds, you could never get it close to the hole.

Maybe in the UK (or even a few U.S.) courses where the fairways play about the same speed as the greens that 130 yard (though I can't hit my putter but about 60 ft with very much control) putt would work.  But never at 13 speed greens.

I think Tom Doak wrote an essay about short grass a while back and highlighted the many strategies it poses for good golfers.  I love short grass and chipping areas, but I think insanely fast greens negate many of those options because IMO it is easier to control a ball with spin on fast greens rather than roll, especially with all the slopes of ANGC.  I swear you could drop a ball on #14 green today and come back tomorrow and it might still be rolling around.

[Jim Nugent]

Just because these guys don't have the game to pull off a 130 yard flat-iron bender to a slippery green with water left and long, they think no one can hit the shot.     

Maybe you guys should spend a little less time at the range before you draw your conclusions about what is and isnt the best play. 

I agree.  ANGC should require that everyone who wants to play their course pass a test, where they prove they can make that shot. 

[George Pazin]

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.

David, No there isn't.

I'd bet the Good Doctor and Bobby Jones would disagree. I certainly don't think they designed Augusta to be a shot-dictating type of a course.

[Chip Gaskins]

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

[DMoriarty]

David,

This is only a guess, but it can be difficult to find a drop zone on the green-side "no closer to the hole" when the creek runs parallel to the green...perhaps this rule was put in to reduce conflict...

I'm no rules expert but my understanding is that with a lateral water hazard one still has the option of dropping w/in two club lengths of the point on the other side of the lateral which is the same distance from the hole.  So if it was impossible to legally drop from the point of entry on the right side of the hazard, one could go to the left.     

But doesn't all this imply that the area both right and left of the creek/ditch used to be maintained differently so as to be much more playable?

As it is now, some might not even guess that the ditch/creek was supposed to be the hazard on the hole, as opposed to the think rough.

[Dschmidt]

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.

David, No there isn't.

I'd bet the Good Doctor and Bobby Jones would disagree. I certainly don't think they designed Augusta to be a shot-dictating type of a course.

Still manufacturing strategery where it just isn't there, eh?

They also didn't design it for people to be hitting wedges into #11.  They designed the strategy for a longer approach shot.  Once you're there, though, there's no other legitimate strategy, unless it's wholly manufactured and force-fed into a situation that doesn't warrant it.   

[George Pazin]

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

Where did you learn this? I don't recall reading of any pot bunkers in the center of fairways in the original Augusta, but I haven't read too much specifically on Augusta, aside from general thoughts from Mackenzie and Jones in their books.

[George Pazin]

They also didn't design it for people to be hitting wedges into #11.  They designed the strategy for a longer approach shot.  Once you're there, though, there's no other legitimate strategy, unless it's wholly manufactured and force-fed into a situation that doesn't warrant it.   

Still doesn't jibe with the little I've read. As downhill as that is, and from where the original tees likely were, I'd guess the expected the occasional baked out runner that would really get down there.

Didn't Jones say the inspiration for Augusta was TOC? Are there many shots at TOC where you have no choice but to hit a punch draw wedge?

Considering they (Jones & Mac) purportedly designed the course to be a joy and challenge for members and ace golfers alike, I'd guess they designed damn near every hole to be playable with a wide variety of shots.

[Dschmidt]

Sure - a wide variety of shots from a wide variety of places.  Yuperoo.  Agreed.

But not a wide variety of shots from THIS place, 130 in the center of the fairway, to THAT pin.

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

[Brent Hutto]

So you think the course demands a variety of shots? For some of us a high, drawing, 130-yard wedge shot with spin that ground hooks to the hole from pin-high and right presents is an uncommon shot indeed. Very much so in fact. The phrase "variety of shots" has no meaning if you limit it only to geeky stuff like putting from 130 yards out.

[Kalen Braley]

While I think there are a couple of different ways that this shot could be played, in principle I'd agree that not every shot from anywhere one could possibly go on a hole is meant to have several options.

Surely if one finds a DLZ, then yes, perhaps the architect had something in mind.  But I doubt Jones and MacK gave much thought about people having an approach from that spot.

Even if its stipulated that the safer "tournament-style" play was 25 feet right of the pin and a knockdown shot, it still doesn't change the context of Chip's play in that point in time.  Give it a go and challenge the pin...getting birdie on 11 with a hole location like that would be something to write home to Momma about!!

P.S. George, I had also read on a thread somewhere I think that 11 used to have a pot bunker right in the middle of the fairway that was blind from the tee.

[George Pazin]

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

Hate to nitpick, but I still disagree. I believe Bob & Ali wanted 80 year olds to be able to play thoughtfully; I don't think they wanted him to only be able to hit a hard spinner or accept bogey.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't putt from 130 yards, and I doubt that it would be the "best" choice for most (if best is defined at the best chance of minimizing your score).

I think this is a fundamental difference in how we each - and by extension, the whole community of golfers at large - view design.

-----

Brent -

I would not say the course demands a variety of shots - I would say it allows a variety of shots. As I said above, I harp on this point because I believe it illustrates a fundamental difference in the approach to golf course design.

[DMoriarty]

David, No there isn't.  Not from 130 yards with a green that slopes right to left off a draw lie.  That is a green light high draw shot with wedge.  That is the only way.  You're in strategery fantasy land again! 

This is not a bunt 5.  Not a cut pitch 8 iron.  It's none of this other goofy stuff you actually believe might be better than the clear and obvious shot --  a high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin.  Maybe Eldrick can hit a punch cut 8 iron toward the water off that lie, and four-hop it in there, but the rest of the world needs to be realistic, throw the ball in the air to the right, spin it (as much as possible) back to the left -- and play the aerial game there.   

Oh yes, the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left.  I'll bet all the octogenarians go with that shot every time.

But you are better golfer than me, so you must be correct.  There is no other option whatsoever.   No place to bounce it in and let it roll.  No place to punch it and let it bounce, grab, and trickle.   Only one possible club, one possible plan, one possible swing.

Given that you purport to be Seve fan, your lack of imagination astounds me. 

_________________________________________________

Shivas- You are exactly right.  The shot couldn't be much more straight-forward.  I just didn't hit a good shot.

DMoriarty-
Again, concerning ANGC, the rye grass is so sticky and the greens are so fast you just can't run balls along the ground and have any distance control.  You have to fly them onto the green with spin. 

Have you ever tried?   If not how do you know?    My home course has rye grass fairways (less so every day, but that is another story)  It may not be ideal, but it is hardly unworkable with the putter, even from range.  I doubt they have ever been cut as tight as Augusta's.   

I think Tom Doak wrote an essay about short grass a while back and highlighted the many strategies it poses for good golfers.  I love short grass and chipping areas, but I think insanely fast greens negate many of those options because IMO it is easier to control a ball with spin on fast greens rather than roll, especially with all the slopes of ANGC. 

I've seen this written before (almost always by quality golfers) but disagree.   Trying to use spin to control ones ball on extremely fast greens presents its own set of challenges.  Hit a down downslope and you may not get the spin.  Hit an upslope or side add a bit too much spin, and you may spin into the water.  Too little spin and you may release too much and into the water.   Don't have drawing spin when it hits and you may leave yourself a tougher putt than your approach.  Hit it high and bring the wind into play.  Take the shot you apparently tried to hit, it must not have been all that simple, or you wouldn't have had the opportunity to try the diabolical drop area. 

My point is that for you, Shivas, and others, "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left" might seem like the only option, but for others it might not even be within the realm of possibility.   

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

Now that sounds like a place from which I might not try to putt. 

[George Pazin]

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

This is almost as good as the Pat Brockwell quote that adorns all of my posts.

[DMoriarty]

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

This is almost as good as the Pat Brockwell quote that adorns all of my posts.

Shoot, my goal was to bump off Pat Brockwell.  If I clean it up a bit, will you give me another chance?

I cringe whenever good yet one-dimensional players pronounce that there is only way to play a shot.  They are almost always mistaken.

Or how about if I simplify it further?

Shivas is an idiot.

[Dschmidt]

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

Hate to nitpick, but I still disagree. I believe Bob & Ali wanted 80 year olds to be able to play thoughtfully; I don't think they wanted him to only be able to hit a hard spinner or accept bogey.

George, that's fine, but for HIM, from THERE, with THAT lie, there was just ONE shot.  He even says so....