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[John Kavanaugh]

I'm not in the camp of intellectuals who think that few golfers consider architecture when playing.  So, taking the course best known to each one of us, assuming we are playing from the member tees where hazards and risk reward are in play, what do you think is in the mind of the golfer who does not consider architecture.

Please save your pithy attemps at humor.

Let's take the most simple and perhaps most famous shot, the tee ball on 12 to a back right Sunday pin.  How can a golfer hit that shot and not consider the architecture of the hole?

[John Kavanaugh]

Alright, I'll make it easier on you.  What goes through either the mind of the intellectual or the numbskull on number one and is there any difference between the two?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Good point. He can't.  That's a fairly straightforward choice of playing to the fatter part of the green or going for the pin.  Oh wait, maybe he can.....

Don't a lot of golfers aim for the pin automatically  without even thinking about it? The golf mags have "strategy" articles aimed at trying to convince the average Joe to go for the fat part of the green all the time as their basic strategy. Does the fact that they re-run similar articles all the time mean the average golfer hasn't got the message?

I would probably go for the fat part 90% of the time on similar holes.  But, knowing it would probably be the last time I ever played Augusta with that pin, maybe I wouldn't.  But, is that the architecture?

[John Kavanaugh]

It is hard to imagine a scenario while playing ANGC where the risk reward of going for the Sunday pin on 12 would not be weighed.  You just have to carry the water so you don't take a drop, make a million, and ruin a potential score.  You don't want to go long for the same reason.  You would love to hit the green, two putt or birdie and live the glory every April for the rest of your life.  What are you...like 150 out and trying to decide between three different clubs.  It's mostly architecture, part history with a pinch of pride.

After the shot..do you think the numbskull could tell you why the club choice was so difficult?  I believe he could as eloquently as any poster on this site...and not even drool on his shirt in the process.

[RJ_Daley]

Are you speaking of ANGC?  What is the best known course to all of us?  If it is ANGC it is the most watched by most but known in the sense of actually playing it by virtually none.  

But, it is ANGC then I guess the design fan will look at the orientation of the tee to the green, the famous check of the wind on the trees behind 11 and when it is felt on your left ear and all that lore, and consider the maintenance meld for that time you are playing in terms of shaved bank, and as Jeff says, how to get to the fat of the green without too short or long, too low trajectory, etc.  

If you aren't talking about 12, and are speaking generically, I guess the GCA fan might be looking at mowing lines in LZ and around bunkers that one sees for maintenance meld mowing lines inside or outside the bunkers, and contour patterns for perhaps intent to give oblique ridges for favored sides or lines and speed slots, etc.  One might see patterns in use of directions, or if heavily treed, how that is handled in terms of angles and ball flights.  As far as greens go, the GCA fan will always look for approach options with open fronts that one has to determine firmness, for optional ground run ups, or aerial assault.  And, were greens designed to bound or stick with use of contour to either segregate the greens in pinnable sections or channel balls on approach to intentional approach consequences of off shoulders or to hollows off or within greens.   Or, one will see within a few holes that the design is consistent in things like all back to front slopes and the intent to always stay short and below holes...

Is that what you are getting at?

Of course if you are a very average to less player like me, all you look for is how to hit the FW anywhere and how to get on or near any green and hope the maintenance meld isn't thick rough near or immediate to the green to cause touchy chips.  

[PPallotta]

A very good example, John.

As Pat's thread suggests, not being able to articulate in words an understanding of architecture is not necessarily the same as not appreciating it or having a meaningful (to shot-choice/making) impression of it.   

Re the 12th: memories of Nicklaus seeming to always go long there, into the back bunker. The smart miss, the safe miss. But, alas, not so safe from back there (especially not for JN), unless you think that bogie is not a bad score with the swirling winds and Sunday pressure.  Then there is the option (favoured by many sensible types) of playing to the left, to the fat part of the green, and two putting (but you'd be thinking only of two putting -- at best -- if you'd ever played the hole before), and so live to get a chance at a birdie or better at one of the upcoming Par 5s.  But then again, there you are, with an 7/8/9 iron in your hand and 150 yards out, with the ball teed up as pretty as you please...waiting a moment for the wind to settle down just a touch before going flag-hunting; or taking a cut 7 and playing a high fade from the middle of the green feeding to the right.

I agree - almost every golfer will go through that process (consciously or quickly or not ), and it is the architecture. What else could it be?

Peter

[Chip Gaskins]

are you guys kidding.  it was all i could do not to throw up on #12.  i tied my shoes, put on chap stick, thought about my checking account balance, basically anything i could do to not think about that shot.  and then grabbed a club and hit as fast as i could.  you think about that particular shot your entire life and its hard to stand there and pretend you have a strategy.  it was for me anyway.

[John Kirk]

Assuming that the "numbskull" is an avid golf fan, nobody is a "numbskull" when it comes to Augusta National.  Everyone who has watched the Masters carefully has been told a dozen times about the difficulty of club selection at #12, and the options he faces.

#12 poses the type of strategy I'd call risk and reward.  I'd choose the shot that maximizes my chances of hitting the green.  If it's 150 to the center, with no wind I'm aiming 3 yards right of center and hitting a "stock" 8-iron, assuming no wind and my standard pull-draw.

But you now what, John?  By the time I get to #12 at Augusta, I'm probably in the complete care of my caddie, and after one or two questions, I'm letting him make the call.

[John Kavanaugh]

are you guys kidding.  it was all i could do not to throw up on #12.  i tied my shoes, put on chap stick, thought about my checking account balance, basically anything i could do to not think about that shot.  and then grabbed a club and hit as fast as i could.  you think about that particular shot your entire life and its hard to stand there and pretend you have a strategy.  it was for me anyway.

Chip,

When did you decide which club you were going to hit?  Did you already know the yardage of the day before you had finished 11?  btw..How did it work out?

[Chip Gaskins]

John-

Well after making 7 from 130 yards in the center of the fairway on 11 I was the last the hit. 

So I had heard the yardage from the other caddies as their players hit. 

158 center. 

The pin was in the center portion of the green.  I knew I wanted to hit something hard, the last thing I wanted to do is hit something 3/4 and screw it up.  So I didn't even ask my caddie as I stood up from tying my shoes, I grabbed 8 iron, dropped a ball and hit it.  Luckily it pretty much worked out.  It flew right at the flag and came up 2 yards shot in the face of the bunker.  I splashed out to 6 feet and missed the par putt.  I actually was happy that didn't totally screw it up.  My playing partner hit two in the water (he is a 3 handicap) and basically just walked over the bridge with his hands in the pockets.  So bogey felt like eagle to me.



Chip

[John Kirk]

Chip,

Interesting you felt so nervous at #12.  I can name several shots at Augusta that would give me butterflies before that one, including the first and tenth tee shot and shots to the 13th and 15th greens.

Just look at how small that green looks in Chip's picture!  Is that fun or just hard?

I'm not all that impressed by history, so I don't get wrapped up in who-did-what-where.  Besides, I'm not all the impressed by carefully maintained and somewhat artificial water hazards.  I'm sure I would enjoy myself immensely, perhaps even more since I don't have particularly high expectations, but Augusta is not in my top ten courses I'd like to see.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chip,

A few questions.  Did you not use a tee?  How much thought went into your outfit for the round and what is brand new?  Didn't you take a peek at the tee while in 11 fairway?  How exactly did you screw up 11 and what architectural considerations went through you mind on your approach?

[John Kavanaugh]

Besides, I'm not all the impressed by carefully maintained and somewhat artificial water hazards.  I'm sure I would enjoy myself immensely, perhaps even more since I don't have particularly high expectations, but Augusta is not in my top ten courses I'd like to see.

John,

Would you agree that Augusta is one course where the greens are potentially more interesting than at Ballyneal?

[Chip Gaskins]

John Kirk-

I was nervous like that on two shots, #1 tee because there were 20 folks (the play for the day) standing around the tee and you are about to tee off at a course you have been watching your entire life and #12 because I just wanted to play the hole the proper way.

#13 I had to lay up, it is a looong way around that corner.

#15 I hit it pin high right.  Neither of them was I nervous.

John Kavanaugh-

I did not use a tee, I usally don't on par 3s.

No thought went in to my outfit.  Khakis and a Bandon Dunes sweater I had just bought a few months early and a "non Masters" ANGC hat from the shop. 

I did use new Pro Vs, I have been known to play with some pretty crummy balls but my dad bought me a dozen and told me I had to play with new balls..

When I was on 11 I didn't look at which tee box we were using on 12...I was too busy making triple.

I hit a good tee shot to 130 yards:


I slightly pulled my 9 iron...it hit on the left side of the green, bounced once and spun back into the water.  If I had the shot again I would have aimed much further out to the right and just two putted.  Instead I actually was going right at it and got greedy and made 7.

NOW the hardest shot in golf is the drop area that no one uses on 11.  I should have re-hit from the same spot but didn't.  It is 60 yards, over the water, to the hood of your car...serisouly it is an impossible shot.



I think the greens are Ballyneal are much more interesting and especially more fun.  The greens at Augusta are so freakin fast you never give anything a real run.

[John Kavanaugh]

Chip,

Thrilled to hear the greens were fast at Augusta that time of year.  As far as going for the pin on 11 - You must have gone brain dead.

Are you noodling that ball?

[PPallotta]

Chip - thanks for the pictures and the stories. You look like you belong there - in that first pic, you got a little Sergio Garcia look going with that swing. If we don't agree that you (or an architectural numbskull) was THINKING about the architecture, I bet we'd agree that you were at EXPERIENCING it...

Which is my point, i.e. that there are a lot of ways of "understanding" architecture other than blabbering about it in words...

Peter

[George Pazin]

As far as going for the pin on 11 - You must have gone brain dead.

Kinda invalidates your point, no?

[John Kavanaugh]

As far as going for the pin on 11 - You must have gone brain dead.

Kinda invalidates your point, no?

Not at all.  Chip is not a numbskull as evidenced by his many thoughtul and informative posts.  Maybe he is so into GCA that he has never heard of Hogan.

I personally find it quite common to understand the nuance of a hole and wonder what the hell I was thinking as the shot leaves the club.

[Chip Gaskins]

John-

I was not noodling the ball, I was trying to decide between wedge or 9 iron and was just going back and forth with my caddie (just out of the picture) on what to hit.

Yes, I was brain dead, but dead center of the fairway from 130 yards feels like "green light" to me...unfortunately I just hit a little bit (it went the right distance) of a pull and I walked off with 7.  That is why I don't like sharp edged hazards and shaved slopes.  #17 at Sawgrass, #11 at Merion, etc.  There is no middle ground with those sharp edges, its black and white architecture and I like shades of gray like #13 and Bandon Trails or #6 green at Augusta.


Peter-

We all know exactly where to hit the tee shots at Augusta.  (i.e. hit your layup on #2 to the opposite side from where the pins is for the best angle, left side of #10, hug the right side on #15, etc)   However, when I was out of place (or not in the correct part of the fairway) I can't say the shots presented me that much difference.  Sure in a vacuum you would leave yourself the perfect angles to the pins, but I am just not that good of a golfer to leave my tee ball in certain quadrants of the fairways. 

I hate to say it, but I just played. 

The shots that had the most strategy were holes like #3 where you have to decide to blast it up by the green or lay it way back short of the fairway bunker or hole # 15 choosing to go for it or not on your second shot or #9 making sure your second shot was long enough to stay on the green but not too far to have that crazy downhill putt.

The strategic decisions I made that day were more about "go" of "no go" versus angles.  I suppose that is the difference between amateur and professional golf.

Yes, I have heard of Hogan and how to play #11, but I just got greedy!

[Dschmidt]

Chip, you made the right decision on #11.  That's a green light pin from 130.  You take them when you get them and that's a position from which, as a great golf coach used to be fond of saying "you're playing offense".  Of course, on #12, you're playing linebacker.

[George Pazin]

I personally find it quite common to understand the nuance of a hole and wonder what the hell I was thinking as the shot leaves the club.

Then I guess that begs another question: If you notice the nuances and do not act on them, do you really notice them at all?

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I personally find it quite common to understand the nuance of a hole and wonder what the hell I was thinking as the shot leaves the club.

Then I guess that begs another question: If you notice the nuances and do not act on them, do you really notice them at all?

 

Unlike some on this site I do not claim to be so fucking bad because I am so fucking smart.

[DMoriarty]

I was not noodling the ball, I was trying to decide between wedge or 9 iron and was just going back and forth with my caddie (just out of the picture) on what to hit.

Should have putted.

[Eric_Terhorst]

John,

Don't all golfers, from numbskull to intellectual, basically take in information to prepare for a shot, make a decision, then try to execute the idea?  Many may not think of it as "considering the architecture" but they are, as well as...what is the wind doing, how does that lie look, if I pull that frickin' 9 iron again, what are the consequences....etc etc.  Regardless of his knowledge of gca, he can miss or misinterpret information that is right in front of him, or make a poor decision or execute poorly and feel like a numbskull as the club leaves the ball, just like you said. 

Wouldn't an architectural numbskull golfer be just as likely as an gca intellectual golfer to come up with "Gotta be right" when assessing Chip's approach to 11 or "Better long than short" when assessing the obvious dangers at 12?   

[DMoriarty]

JakaB,

This photo of Chip's is another good example where one almost has to consider the architecture whether they know it or not. 

Chip, while the result in the water is certainly black and white, the shot itself is pretty gray, isn't it?

I hit a good tee shot to 130 yards:

[/quote]

Chip, you made the right decision on #11.  That's a green light pin from 130.  You take them when you get them and that's a position from which, as a great golf coach used to be fond of saying "you're playing offense".  Of course, on #12, you're playing linebacker.

Shivas, what exactly do you mean when you say that this is a "green light pin?"   Where, exactly, are you aiming?  Club? Trajectory? Expected action when the ball hits? 

______________________

I still say putter is the play.  It looks like the hole was built for the 130 yard putt!  [Whoops. Earthquake. Okay.]  Seriously.  Why not putt?   

[George Pazin]

I still say putter is the play.  It looks like the hole was built for the 130 yard putt!  [Whoops. Earthquake. Okay.]  Seriously.  Why not putt?

I'd guess most American golfers feel more comfortable judging distance with irons than a putter, at least from over 30 yards or so.

Maybe the stake was in his line....

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Don't all golfers, from numbskull to intellectual, basically take in information to prepare for a shot, make a decision, then try to execute the idea?  Many may not think of it as "considering the architecture" but they are, as well as...what is the wind doing, how does that lie look, if I pull that frickin' 9 iron again, what are the consequences....etc etc.  Regardless of his knowledge of gca, he can miss or misinterpret information that is right in front of him, or make a poor decision or execute poorly and feel like a numbskull as the club leaves the ball, just like you said. 

Wouldn't an architectural numbskull golfer be just as likely as an gca intellectual golfer to come up with "Gotta be right" when assessing Chip's approach to 11 or "Better long than short" when assessing the obvious dangers at 12?   

That is exactly how I feel.  I toubles me considerably when posters on this site go on and on about how only they get why holes are built how they are.  Why after at least 30 years of observational empirical evidence by Shivas he would still call Chip's shot to 11 a green light situation creates entirely another catagory of numbskullian folly.

[Jed Peters]

Shivas, what exactly do you mean when you say that this is a "green light pin?"   Where, exactly, are you aiming?  Club? Trajectory? Expected action when the ball hits? 

______________________

I still say putter is the play.  It looks like the hole was built for the 130 yard putt!  [Whoops. Earthquake. Okay.]  Seriously.  Why not putt?   

Green light--I'd hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin. I'd bet I'd get this inside 15' 70% of the time I'm faced with that shot (if it wasn't augusta, and/or I played it over and over again).

Putter? Don't be a douche.

[Chip Gaskins]

the real mistake i made was to not take the slight uphill lie i had into consideration that was just enough to make me tug it left.

there is no way i could putt that ball.  it would have 90% chance of going in the water.  hitting a shot onto that green with spin and getting it to stop was IMO the best way to get it close.  having it run onto that green was asking for trouble.  especially with out any practice being my first time out there.

i can't think of one green at ANGC where a true bump and run approach shot works.  maybe #5 or #8.  otherwise pinpoint precision shots, to below the hole with just enough spin to stop in its place.  there are lots of cool little chip shots that require mini-bump and runs (thats why the Euros always win) but not full shot bump and runs.

again, i should have just aimed further out to the right on #11.

[Jim Sullivan]

Dave Moriarty,

I am going to assume you're carying your humor over from the Merion thread...

As Chip said, putter brings the water a hell of alot more in play than any other club in the bag...especially if the greens are as fast as he said earlier in the thread.

[DMoriarty]

Green light--I'd hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin. I'd bet I'd get this inside 15' 70% of the time I'm faced with that shot (if it wasn't augusta, and/or I played it over and over again).

Putter? Don't be a douche.

Not a douche.  A putter.  I'd never try the shot with a douche.   Too slippery at the end.   Plus, I don't have a conforming douche.  Does Calloway make one?

the real mistake i made was to not take the slight uphill lie i had into consideration that was just enough to make me tug it left.

there is no way i could putt that ball.  it would have 90% chance of going in the water.  hitting a shot onto that green with spin and getting it to stop was IMO the best way to get it close.  having it run onto that green was asking for trouble.  especially with out any practice being my first time out there.

i can't think of one green at ANGC where a true bump and run approach shot works.  maybe #5 or #8.  otherwise pinpoint precision shots, to below the hole with just enough spin to stop in its place.  there are lots of cool little chip shots that require mini-bump and runs (thats why the Euros always win) but not full shot bump and runs.

again, i should have just aimed further out to the right on #11.

Dave Moriarty,

I am going to assume you're carying your humor over from the Merion thread...

As Chip said, putter brings the water a hell of alot more in play than any other club in the bag...especially if the greens are as fast as he said earlier in the thread.

This is typical of how design gets watered down by catering to the one-dimensional hacks.   Just because these guys don't have the game to pull off a 130 yard flat-iron bender to a slippery green with water left and long, they think no one can hit the shot.     

Maybe you guys should spend a little less time at the range before you draw your conclusions about what is and isnt the best play. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Not a douche.  A putter.  I'd never try the shot with a douche.   Too slippery at the end.   Plus, I don't have a conforming douche.  Does Calloway make one?

David,

I recently played a few holes with my son only using a beer bottle (because I didn't feel like walking to my car to get some clubs) and found that on downhill chips off the fringe I was more accurate than with any other chipping device.  On my thoughts and research finding if it would be conforming to use in regular play I found the following:

c. Length

Appendix II, 1c states that:
    The overall length of the club must be at least 18 inches

Being that most clubs where I play do not sell 40's or allow me to bring my own beer onto the course I found myself out of luck.  I believe that this would also exclude most douches even though I do recall once Summers Eve coming out with an extended douche for obese women.  Sadly this product was taken off the market when a focus group tragically committed mass suicide before the end of the demonstration.

[Jim Sullivan]

If you can bend a 130 yard putter away from the water I'll jump ship in the Merion debate...some genius just need to be recognized...


EDIT: One upped before I even got in the que

[DMoriarty]

If you can bend a 130 yard putter away from the water I'll jump ship in the Merion debate...some genius just need to be recognized...

I couldn't bend it away from the water.   But think I could bend it toward the water, and it would probably make more sense for me than  "hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin."


You set it up and I'll be glad to show you.

[Jim Sullivan]

Maybe we'll practice the putter draw on #5 at Merion...has anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole???