Comments on Cougar Canyon / re: Trinidad, CO

[Matt_Ward]

Be interested in the comments from people who have played Cougar Canyon GC in Trinidad, CO.

Golf Magazine listed a few seasons ago the course among the top ten you could play in a given year.

I know the course is not a signature Nicklaus course. Fascinated by a few holes I saw pictures on the Website -- the par-3 16th at 160 yards looks quite entertaining and fun.

The layout is over 7,600 yards and has a 76.2 CR and 139 slope - one of the highest for Colorado -- especially for a layout that is open to the public.

Be curious to the comments as I will be playing the course in the next few weeks.

Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I thought it was wonderful, much better than I expected to be honest. The "island" green 16th is interesting, its actually one of the closer matches to Sawgrass in terms of the shot requirements. Its not a huge target, but not the ultimate penalty in the sense that a ball "could" be found in spots and played; its also just a short little wedge or 9-iron. I forget how far back the back tee was, it might be a little longer from there.

There are some long strong par fours from the tips, and even the 6700 yard tees that I played. They might benefit from a combo set at 7100 given the elevation; 7600 is too much for me, 6700 at that elevation might be a bit short.

I also liked the use of semi-blind features; at least 3 greens are not seen from most of the fairway (#4, 13, 14). Its different from the usual Nicklaus stuff that's more out in front of you. They also moved little dirt to build the course and it does show. The use of the canyon is done well for the most part.

Will be interested to hear your thoughts once you've played it. Lakota Canyon holds the #1 public spot in the state from what I've played; Cougar Canyon comes in #2. I'm playing both courses at Red Sky in August, so there's a chance that might change, but Cougar Canyon is very strong IMO.

Are you playing Four Mile Ranch in Canon City or anything else new while in the area?

[Adam Clayman]

I'd like to see the routing compared to what Baxter came up with.

Are they doing any business? What's the green fee and cart policy? Do they make a good bowl of soup?
Thanx ahead of time.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Many thanks.

When you head to Red Sky Ranch bag the TF design. Strictly pro forma TF design that offers very little of substance. It's akin to what TF did with his Valley design at Cordillera.

Now ...

The Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch is a peach of a layout in my mind. Arguably, it is among the 2-3 best public courses I have played in all of Colorado and my visits to the state have been based on numerous plays at different courses throughout all sectors of the Centennial State.

Andy -- one last question -- had you heard anything prior to playing Cougar Canyon and if so did it meet, exceed what you had heard before teeing it up?

Adam:

I am aware of the situation with Baxter and how the Nicklaus group became involved. On the Website the fee is $69 at peak times with cart included. Don't know if walking is permitted -- likely Andy can address that.

Ditto on the other dimensions on what's offered when visiting.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
The food was adequate with large portions from my one experience; I think they are still working on expanding the menu selections 

I rode the course and I think most players do. I think they'd let you walk if you wanted, but I'm forgetting whether I actually asked or not. It would be a challenging walk, but not ridiculously so. You'd have to walk down into the canyon and back out the other side a few times, but it's probably an easier walk than Black Mesa for example. The course had a fair amount of play, but it was a Sunday morning in June so if there's not play then it seems like there never will be.

Matt,
I did not know much about the details of the course prior to playing. I did know about the ranking in the GOLF Mag listing. Its a better course IMO than Butterfield Trail which made the same list and is no slouch in its own right. It easily beat my expectations. There is a housing element to the course, but it will be kept well out of play. Its not as good as Black Mesa or Paa-Ko Ridge and not as spectacular visually as those layouts or many others in Colorado but its a good solid layout.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy and to any other folks who have played CC:

What were the best holes there?

What were the holes you least liked?

Of the public layouts you have played in Colorado do you see CC being only behind the likes of Lakota Canyon Ranch?

Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Best holes: #5, 8, 10, 13. Will let you find out why before I explain.
Worst holes: #7 (too narrow in landing area, they are in the process of widening it in which case I will like it much better), #18 (only water hole on the course...that probably says enough)

These are all the Colorado publics I've seen. As I said, will add both courses at Red Sky Ranch this month. Tried to play Bear Dance once but couldn't get on, will try again eventually.
1. Lakota Canyon Ranch
2. Cougar Canyon
3. Redlands Mesa
4. Four Mile Ranch
5. Broadmoor East
6. Grandote Peaks
7. Eisenhower Blue (kinda public)
8. Dalton Ranch
9. Broadmoor Mountain (post-renovation)
10. Ridge at Castle Pines North

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Try to schedule a visit to Highland Meadows in Windsor -- just south of Fort Collins -- designed by Art Schaupeter who was an assistant under Keith Foster for a time. Solid layout that gets little pub. Easily would make your top ten listing that you've played thus far.

Thanks for the CC info -- I'll be by the end of this month and will weigh in on what I see.

p.s. One other good public is Foster's Haymaker in Steamboat Springs and The Raven at Three Peaks in Silverthorne by Tom Lehman and folks.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Thanks for the suggestions; I would like to the see the courses you've mentioned, plus Breckenridge, Arrowhead, Fossil Trace, Rio Grande, Broadmoor West, and some others. Too many courses, never enough time!

[Mike Bowline]

7. Eisenhower Blue (kinda public)

How does one get on the Eisenhower Course at AFA? I am fairly new to CO and I do not know any military folks.

Thanks

[Andy Troeger]

Mike,
I think you hit the main way to get on: through knowing someone in the military. I played as a magazine panelist. I don't know if writing a nice letter would be sufficient or not.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I like the photos of the short par-3 set alongside the canyon -- makes for an interesting version of the TPC / Sawgrass hole but with a clear western motif.

What were the deficiencies of the course when held against the likes of Black Mesa? Is it the overall terrain / land? Are the greens sufficiently contoured?

In regards to the courses you mentioned -- Highland Meadows is a bit ahead of just about any of them you cited.

[Andy Troeger]

Black Mesa goes to another level in terms of interest and variety. The drivable par fours at BM have more options than the one at Cougar Canyon (blind green #14...couldn't figure out if I liked it or not).

The greens do have quite a bit of contour, not like Black Mesa but enough to keep things interesting to be sure. There's a nice fall off front left of #17; its a nice feature but does not have the intimidation factor that #2 at Black Mesa carries.

Black Mesa is quite a bit more scenic than Cougar Canyon as well, the landform is more distinctive even though Cougar Canyon is no slouch. They are fairly different courses really so its hard to provide much direct comparison.