[Jay Flemma]

Mr. and Mrs. Havercamp are back.  My 80 and change dad and 70 and change mom are going to try Tobacco Road.  Their reviews are actually quite instructive because they give you a glimpse into what the average American golfer thinks...they're  a great litmus test.  They loved "The Hideout" by KBM and had a great time at Caledonia, but best of all, their off the cuff analysis and candid delivery make for some humorous moments:

Mom on Caledonia:  "Tell Furry Fozler I said make the par-3s shorter."

Dad on 18 at caledonia:  "You hit a big drive, then you hit it in the water."

So step right up and place your bets.  Two ordinary American golfers who have played all their lives, traveled to Myrtle and Hilton Head, played resort golf, and have only played one strantz course - caledonia - are headed to tobacco road.  What do you think the reaction will be?  Love it?  hate it?  Take it in stride?  Think its crazy?  Never asking me for a recommendation again?

My guess:  Dad will be impressed.  He'll say he never seen anything like it before.  He'll say it's too hard and that a couple of times he couldn't figure out where to go.  But he'll say there were a lot of great holes.  He'll love the greens.  he won't be fazed by the blind shots - we both grew up on blind shots - and he won't be fazed by the green contours either.  he thinks those tings are part of golf and that their not unfair.  They'll have more of a problem with the size and depth of the bunkers.  But I think he'll be impressed and have a favorable response.  I don;t think he could play it every day, but I think he's open-minded enough to take it in stride.

Mom might freak.  Start with "I've never seen anything like it."  Then, if she gets in the mumble tank, she'll curse me.  If she plays well, she'll say it was spectacular.  Even though she's played a lot of REALLY hard golf courses, I think Tobacco Road could intimidate her.  I'm gonna prepare her by saying "just pretend you're playing the Monster."  (Concord Golf Club...we vacationed there every year for many years when it was open.)  That will at least prepare her for the difficulty.  The bunkers could be too much for her.  She'll love 15, the par-3.

By the way, they're also playing Pine Needles one day, just to counter balance things.

What do you guys think?  What is the "Average American Golfer" - someone who isn't a casual player, but a devoted player, gonna think of Tobacco Road?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jay,

I'm a fan of Tobacco Road and recommended the course to a group of friends traveling to the Pinehurst area a couple years ago. If I recall correctly, the foursome was split. Two loved the course. Two disliked it, very much.

Tobacco Road is definitely polarizing. You either love it, or hate it. So are many of the world's very best courses. 

I don't know what your parents will think. But they're up for an adventure, either way!

[Kyle Harris]

If a septuagenarian is the average American golfer, I must be playing golf with a lot of outliers.

[Jay Flemma]

...it was voted most adventurous course in America, Jeff, you have that nailed down.

Kyle, I meant average not in age, but in their love for golf...devoted...as most golfers are.

[Cliff Hamm]

Consider myself an average golfer with above average interest in golf architecture.  Handicap is 16 while wife is a 29.  We played TR in the fall and absolutely loved it.  Great fun.  Did not think it was impossibly difficult as shot around 90.  Interestingly played it twice once from the 6200 yard tees or so and once from the 5800 yards or so.  Thought I played about the same both days and scores were similar. So if I'm average there's a vote for Tobacco Road.

[Jay Flemma]

excellent cliff, sounds good to me.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tough call, I'd imagine if they enjoyed Caledonia, then there are some things they will like at the road. Although I have never been there , True Blue seems like it would be kind of similar, in difficulty? I can tell you my brother almost walked off True Blue, but after the first 4 holes the course leveled out and he liked it. So I will bet they will love and hate parts of Tobbaco Road, but a memorable experience it will be.

[Jay Flemma]

I think they'd have no trouble with true blue because they've played "waste bunker"  courses  before.  Part of the outcry back when TB was built was that it didn't look like anything we'd seen before.  Now it looks like a lot of things we've seen.  The Road still looks like nothing we've seen before!

[John Moore II]

Jay--it depends on how straight they can hit the ball. Someone who hit it mostly straight will anjoy TR, think it fun and should score well. Someone who plays a big banana slice will think its the stupidest place known to man. I say if the like courses that are fun with designs that are 'on the edge' they will love Tobacco Road.

[Richard Hetzel]

I found Tobacco Road to be quite an enjoyable experience. In fact, I REALLY LIKED it a lot! I did not find the sand as PENAL as I thought it would be, everything is deemed a "waste area", so that helps. A few silly holes, but still quite enjoyable...

Here are the pics I took of it...

http://www.hetzelfamily.org/golf/Tobacco%20Road/

[Matt MacIver]

I was there yesterday (Sunday) along with every other "average American".   Despite +90 degree temps the tee sheet was jammed.  Our first round was 4:50 minutes and we waited on nearly every shot.  Also slowing things down are the proximity of various tee boxes to greens, invasively loud gas-powered carts, heavy rough and blind shots which necessiate waiting for the clanging bell before playing your next shot (did I hear it; did I not?). 

Love the holes, would love the experience better on an uncrowded weekday.  Great value, especially when stacked up against the other area courses, but that value is what makes it so crowded. 

[Jay Flemma]

Kenneth, they hit it reasonably straight.  Their misses are usually hard ground balls.

I guess I'm just excited and grateful to show them something they've never seen before.

[George Pazin]

If they are okay with it, I'd suggest playing a mixture of tees. The course is too short if they only play up tees, imho, even for short knockers, but it they play too far back, they will have too many holes where they'd lose hard ground balls.

I'm a weirdo, I guess: I didn't love it or hate it. I enjoyed it, but didn't love it.

[Doug Wright]

I'm a weirdo, I guess: I didn't love it or hate it. I enjoyed it, but didn't love it.

George, was this also your assessment of Black Mesa?

[George Pazin]

Yep.

I wonder how long till Matt jumps down my throat for not loving it? Over/under anyone?

 

[Jay Flemma]

I cant give you over under on it, but I dont think my parents are adventurous enough to mix and match tees...you also cant submit the card for a handicap when you do that.  They're more adventurous about golf design than about the rules...dad used to carry a tape measure and I watched he and his foursome actually break it out and run it from OB stake to OB stake to see if Eli Salamy's ball was in bounds or not!

[John Moore II]

Jay--what was the result?

[Tom_Doak]

Jay:

Have they played yet?

I'm betting they didn't enjoy it that much.  I think the course is quite appealing to large segments of the golfing population -- it's a challenge for good players, and a fun romp for 15- or 20-handicaps who can hit it 200 yards and don't mind piling up a score.  But for seniors, I have my doubts about it.

I played it a week ago with one of my interns and two 12-year-olds getting ready for a junior tournament in Pinehurst.  The kids could hit it 150 yards on a string -- maybe 170 off the tee -- but there were still a few holes where there was no good option for them:

At #1 the stronger of the two just cleared the hazard off the tee, but tried to get through the gap with his second when he should have laid up.

At #2 the shorter hitter would have had to play way right off the tee as he couldn't carry to the fairway.

At #7, one laid up in two and still had a difficult third shot; the other BARELY made it across the wet area in two but had no chance to play for the green.

At #9 they played from the back tee as a par five, which was a good idea, because there was no way they could get home with a second shot so they'd have had to lay up.

#15 was brutal for them, and #16 as well.  I was suspicious of those two holes the first time I walked the course, and watching these kids play them confirmed my earlier thoughts ... they had no good option for the approach to #15 even after a perfect tee shot, and they had no good option for the tee shot on #16 either.

I'm thinking your dad would have all of the same problems.

The rest of the holes worked quite well for them.  I was disappointed to see that they are watering the greens very heavily ... maybe it's just the heat, but I suspect they are trying to keep the greens very soft to corral more approach shots instead of seeing them bounce through the green into trouble.

I had a great time playing a match against my intern and I would gladly play there again.  The course must be very successful because it is the perfect contrast to the sameness of many Pinehurst courses, plus it's right on the way to/from Raleigh airport, and close enough to Raleigh to draw once-a-month play from regulars there, too.  They got the operations end just right ... one of the nicest small clubhouses I've seen.

The other weird thing to me was having rangers on #1 and #2 and #5 to explain to people how to play the holes ...  I've seen that before on individual holes, but certainly not three times in the first five!

[John Moore II]

Tom--was this the first time you had played Tobacco Road? Is your overall opinion of the course reflective of what was written above? How would you rate the course (if possible) 6, 7, 8, 9?

[Richard Hetzel]

Tom,

I am in complete agreement with you on their clubhouse. Nestled nicely in the trees and very warm and inviting inside. One of the best I have been in lately.

What did you think of this par 3, although I cannot remember exactly which number it was:

[John Moore II]

Rich--That is hole 14. Great hole, but thinking about it, with the water, may be a bit out of place with the rest of the course.

[Craig Disher]

TomD,
You didn't say which tees the 12-year olds played from. Except for 16 and 18 which require decent carries from the forward (cultivator?) tees, I'd have thought that a dead-accurate golfer would be able to tack around without too much trouble. A friend of mine who can barely hit a drive 150 yards managed one of his best rounds ever by doing just that; he loved the course.

It really is a welcome break from most of what's around Pinehurst.

[Tom_Doak]

Craig D.:

The kids played the third set of tee markers most of the way around, I think that was the cultivators.

The hole I dislike the most is 15.  It's a weird blind drive where you can get into all kinds of trouble ... the kids came up short of that, but then faced a 150-yard carry over bunkers to the green.  One of them made the carry only to hit at the back of the green on the left, go over, and lose his ball in the environmental area back there.  His only other choices would have been to deliberately hit into the bunkers in front, or play WAY out to the right and hit a pitch from there.

Kenneth:

I don't give number ratings any more.  I liked a lot of things about the course, but I would rate Caledonia and MPCC (Shore) as Mike's best work, with Tobacco Road likely third. 

[John Moore II]

Tom--Interesting, why do you not give number ratings anymore? Because people began to put too much stock in them?

[RJ_Daley]

TD, I take it you haven't seen Bulls Bay.  

Jay, I think your parents sound adventuresome and have a good sense of humor.  (After all they put up with you)    So, I think they will take the quirk in stride and have a good time.  As long as they can hit the ball somewhere and find it rather than many lost balls, I think they will enjoy the trip around the course.  Also, I assume they will ride in a cart, so fatique probably won't be that big of a deal as it is for "average golfers" who insist to walk at TR due to a few long hikes like 14-->15.  The ladies tees ought to be OK for your Mom and not have impossible carries, don't you think?  I can't really remember the exact nature and distances of carry (if any) from ladies tees.  Although, I'm not sure but think the ladies tee is past the carry cliff on 18.  Or that could be a deal breaker...  

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