"Average Americans" to tackle Tobacco Road - what's the predicted reaction?

[Sean_A]

Thirteen was the one hole I liked more than I thought I would from my previous walk-around.  It is not really that long, but because of the trouble around the green it plays like a real three-shot hole, and the second shot is very difficult with multiple landing areas, although it's too bad you can't see them better from the first landing area.

Although I would never try to go for this green in two, I would try to get up there somewhere close next time, instead of laying back to 100-120 yards and taking my chances.

Tom

The big problem with 13 is that length gets a HUGE advantage.  Guys can knock it over the trees and have wedge in while others have to play out to the left and be left with two more difficult shots.  I would liek to find some way where shorter hitters can at least can get into position for a good layup.  Now, there is no position off the tee for a good layup.  The second is blind and hitting at an angle to a fairway.   I don't have much love at all fro the drive or second on this hole.  Too dictated for most players. 

Ciao

[Dan Herrmann]

I'd have loved to see what Starantz would've come up with later in his life.  We lost such potential...

[Chip Gaskins]

Thirteen was the one hole I liked more than I thought I would from my previous walk-around.  It is not really that long, but because of the trouble around the green it plays like a real three-shot hole, and the second shot is very difficult with multiple landing areas, although it's too bad you can't see them better from the first landing area.

And, I agree completely with Sean about the greens.  It's one thing to have an oddly-shaped green where you can't get a straight putt at the hole ... in such cases it's great fun to try and putt around the curve, a la #7 at Ballyneal.  But on many of the greens at Tobacco Road the slope of the green is AWAY from the intervening curve so even a great putt would wind up twenty feet from the hole, and a player with an L wedge would be sorely tempted to take a divot out of the green.  One of the guys behind us was completely stymied on #15 after playing what he thought was a safe shot to the right half with the flag left.

In general, the greens design was the main thing I didn't like about Tobacco Road.  The scale of the whole course was so big that it seemed like there wasn't any room for the kind of smaller contours that make for cool chipping and putting.  It's the same but even more so at Royal New Kent ... you're either in a 10-foot-deep bunker, putting up a five-foot tier, or putting on the same plane.

I completely agree that the set of par 5s at Tobacco Road are fantastic.  #1, #4, #11 and #13 all are great risk reward holes.

I could take or leave the tee shot on #1, but the second shot is pretty fun from about 210 out (at least the second time you play it)




I don't mind the crazy #15 green.  You are hitting a wedge in so you should at least be able to get the ball on the right 1/2 of the green, no?


#7 is the green I don't really care for.  no way to get it close to any pin on the right, even with a wedge the ball bounces over long.  and that swale on the left is simply too big for my liking.


it wasn't until recently did I really realize how cool the #18 green was with all the cool chipping areas.

[George Pazin]

One nitpick on the course: It has some really stupid trees.

On #3, I was playing the way up tees with my wife (her first and only time on a golf course, how about that for a one off?). I hit a sand wedge and it got knocked down by a tree overhanging the green! Nothing like having to play a low punch shot because of tree coverage above the area in front of the green. Then, on #4, I went with my wife to the forward most tee, and there was a tree right in front of the tee! Unbelievable. I moved back two sets of markers after that (and then one more set later). I believe someone posted that that tree has since come down - I don't know how it ever survived in the first place.

The theme of the course that I liked least were the many wide but shallow greens - it seems like the type of feature that really favors the better player and severely penalizes those with inconsistent yardage control.

Glad someone posted a photo of #14 - I had to play my beach shot from in between waves. It was pretty funny.

EDIT:

If someone wants to play one set of tees, I'd suggest taking a good look at the carry on 18 to determine which set. That has to be the most daunting tee shot for a high handicapper I've ever seen.

[John Moore II]

Chip--I can't say I agree with all your assessments. The green on 15 is very severe and unless you have very exceptional distance control (PGA Tour level) it can be more or less impossible to go for the flag. The entire left side of the green is blind from the left (main) fairway. But that is a very, very hard green to hold.
And #7, I think Ran even wrote this in his review, to get to the right pins, you must hit a big draw  off the tee and get into the far left side of the fairway. That opens up th green a lot more than from the center or right side of the fairway.
But 18 has a very good green complex with run-offs all around.

Tom--you should contact the owners and perhaps state a desire to remodel the course

[Sean_A]

Chip--I can't say I agree with all your assessments. The green on 15 is very severe and unless you have very exceptional distance control (PGA Tour level) it can be more or less impossible to go for the flag. The entire left side of the green is blind from the left (main) fairway. But that is a very, very hard green to hold.
And #7, I think Ran even wrote this in his review, to get to the right pins, you must hit a big draw  off the tee and get into the far left side of the fairway. That opens up th green a lot more than from the center or right side of the fairway.
But 18 has a very good green complex with run-offs all around.

Tom--you should contact the owners and perhaps state a desire to remodel the course

JKM

I think the hardest part about 15 green is that it slopes away from the player.  Combine this with the shallow aspect and I can see how folks would take a dislike to the hole.  IMO all it needs is for the fairway to be a bit firmer so folks can kick a grounder onto the green.  The course is always too bloody soft!

Ciao

[John Moore II]

Sean--Agreed about 15. The more I think about it and talk about it here, I am really discovering why I like the course so much, before I couldn't quantify it. Its a challenge and requires precision in order to score. But that same set-up makes the course exceptionally hard for the middle to high handicap player. I think TR is a great course, well, maybe a very good course, but that it is the opposite of the courses we need today, easy for good players, very hard for poor ones. We need courses that are either easy for all, or moderate for good players and easy for poor ones.

[George Pazin]

I think TR is a great course, well, maybe a very good course, but that it is the opposite of the courses we need today, easy for good players, very hard for poor ones.

I think this is exactly what many like about the course - it's an ego booster if you're a good golfer.

I agree that in many ways we need the opposite - but that's easier said than done.

[John Moore II]

I agree that in many ways we need the opposite - but that's easier said than done.

Indeed it is easier said than done.

[Kyle Henderson]

For what it's worth, when I first played Tobacco Road (2004), I was a novice golfer (~18 handicap) and I shot 10 over par. The fairways and greens are generous (though long putts are nigh impossible to lag close).

Certainly the course isn't designed for everybody, but that's part of what makes it unique. I don't think every course caters should cater to everybody.

[Steve Kline]

I think 13 is by far the weakest par 5 (in fact I think it's pretty dumb) and a waste of a green site. I'm relatively long (about 270 average off the tee) and usually play the back tees at TR but I have never carried the trees on this hole. My drive usually ends of hitting them about half way up. I'm not a fun of hitting two lay up shots on a par 5, which is what I need to do on this hole. The only thing I can think of to improve the hole is remove the trees and add another sand pit that creates more of a cape effect for all length hitters. But, then it's too similar in look to the 4 and 11 although the forced carry would come on the tee shot and not the attempt at going for the green in two.

[Sean_A]

I think 13 is by far the weakest par 5 (in fact I think it's pretty dumb) and a waste of a green site. I'm relatively long (about 270 average off the tee) and usually play the back tees at TR but I have never carried the trees on this hole. My drive usually ends of hitting them about half way up. I'm not a fun of hitting two lay up shots on a par 5, which is what I need to do on this hole. The only thing I can think of to improve the hole is remove the trees and add another sand pit that creates more of a cape effect for all length hitters. But, then it's too similar in look to the 4 and 11 although the forced carry would come on the tee shot and not the attempt at going for the green in two.

I played with a guy who carries the ball about 270-280 and he cleared the trees with no problem, but from the second to back set of tees.  Even so, I would have to agree that the hole wastes a great green site.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

The only thing I can think of for 13 is to put a new tee in place (and sorry I can't upload a Google Earth image) back near the irrigation pond thats between 12 and 13. That way you can make the hole more straightaway for the big hitters. And make it longer as well. TR does not really have a par 5 that is anything other than a risk/reward half-par, even #1 I can come very near reaching in two with an iron second shot.
--Not sure what I think about the comment "waste of a good green site." I think perhaps the entire hole could be better, but I don't think that green, in its present state, is playable if the player is hitting more than about an 8 iron to the green. I will say I think its an excellent site though.

[Cliff Hamm]

T
--Not sure what I think about the comment "waste of a good green site." I think perhaps the entire hole could be better, but I don't think that green, in its present state, is playable if the player is hitting more than about an 8 iron to the green. I will say I think its an excellent site though.

I'm not that long so I can't relate to many of the comments about 13.  However, it is a par 5.  What is wrong with it requiring 3 shots?  If nothing more than an 8  iron doesn't work put your ball in position for the 8 iron or better yet learn to hit it higher and further    I suspect Tiger would hit it in two.

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

You should mention in your photo of #15 green that your shot is taken from the right side of the green looking toward the left, so that all those slopes are AWAY from the line of play.  A guy behind my group hit his second shot where the flag is in your photo ... but the hole was in the front left, right about over the top of the flag in your picture, and he couldn't putt within twenty feet.  Tell me that's good golf, and we will go our separate ways.

[John Moore II]

Tom--I'm not certain what you describe is good golf, but I think the green becomes more accessible if you can hit it up the right side fairway. I have considered doing that, but I have never been able to convince myself to do it. Next time I play there, I am going to give that a whirl. I think the green is somewhat fair though, at least for the player able to hit a short iron/wedge into the green.

[Jay Flemma]

If I have a nit-pick, it's 9...it demands too perfect a drive and not enough chance for recovery.  I LOVE 13 for all the same strategic reasons you all mentioned.  I think my parents will like that one too.

[Sean_A]

Chip:

You should mention in your photo of #15 green that your shot is taken from the right side of the green looking toward the left, so that all those slopes are AWAY from the line of play.  A guy behind my group hit his second shot where the flag is in your photo ... but the hole was in the front left, right about over the top of the flag in your picture, and he couldn't putt within twenty feet.  Tell me that's good golf, and we will go our separate ways.

Tom

I don't like the idea if its used as often as it is at The Road.  But to be honest, I can't imagine going for a flag hard left on that 15th.  There is so little room to land the ball and such a big chance to lose the ball left.  To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing the green on the left eliminated and the section heading toward 16 tee extended.  Man, I don't know what I am talking about.. I think every time I played this hole I ended up in the rear waste. 

Jay - I think the drive at 9 is fairly simple - it mostly gathers to the middle.  If you want to play shorter to the right its an option, but leaves a nasty approach.  IMO its one of the best holes on the course - though a bit more space could be created above and left so balls don't get lost so easily.

Ciao 

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip:

You should mention in your photo of #15 green that your shot is taken from the right side of the green looking toward the left, so that all those slopes are AWAY from the line of play.  A guy behind my group hit his second shot where the flag is in your photo ... but the hole was in the front left, right about over the top of the flag in your picture, and he couldn't putt within twenty feet.  Tell me that's good golf, and we will go our separate ways.

Tom-

Yes, picture was taken from #16 tee, I wasn't trying to mislead, it was just the only picture I had.  I should have noted that.

The contours and shape of #15 make it a little over the top.  You are correct, there is no way to putt from the far right over to the far left and get the ball within 20 feet.  You can chip/pitch it within 20 feet, but no one really likes to chip on greens. 

Now, with that said.  If you are on the far left with you approach shot and the pin is on the far right (or vice versa), then aren't you about 30-40 yards off line with a short iron?  That sounds like a pretty bad shot to me. 

Are you saying that no matter how poor your previous bad shot was that a player should always be "able" to get his next shot close to the hole if he hits a great shot?

Chip-