No Longer a Ten?

[Bryce Mueller]

Tom,
It is sad i agree. I played in the north and south amateur this year, and I want to say that there is NOTHING more fun than playing " the deuce" in tournament conditions. by that, i mean that i got to play the back left pin on 14 which was 37 on (green depth 40).... those type of pins= SO MUCH FUN.  That being said, there were 3 specific holes that really bothered me in terms of mowing lines. The second hole has already been discussed but 13 and 18 both have drastically changed because drives over the bunkers which were supposed to be "aggressive " now go into rough. The 18th just BEGS for a power fade over the far left side of the bunker on the right. Payne Stewart talked about how he thought his drive was really good on the 72nd hole in 99, and that's because it was. his tee shot( which was 2 yds into the right rough) is the PERFECT angle into that green and is where that fairway used to be. I would HOPE that after the US Amateur this summer, the lines might widen up, since there will be a 6 year gap until the next tournament... One can dream at least...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryce,

I received an interesting message while watching fellow competitors play # 18 in the North-South many years ago.

I had a rather low trajectory on my drives, which coupled with a slight draw, served me well.

Unfortunately, the right side fairway bunker on # 18 was where I ended up when I slightly pushed or didn't draw my drive.

It was Moss Beecroft who enlightened me as to trajectory when he carried that bunker.

A few years later Frank Hannigan and I were discussing long hitters when he observed/opined that the long hitters had higher trajectories.

The thought of challenging and carrying that bunker only to end up in the rough is unfortunate.

While some may scoff at risk/reward, the fairway bunker on # 18 seemed to epitomize it.

I have a great number of great memories associated with Pinehurst.
Some of which I can't repeat on a public forum.

[Tom_Doak]

Bryce:

It's not just those three holes you mentioned, either.  At #5 you can't drive out to the right to get a flatter lie and a more open angle for the long second shot ... it's rough up there on the flat spot.  At #7 a short hitter can't hug the bunkers to try and give himself a shorter approach shot.  At #11 you can't drive out to the left to give yourself an angle at the right-hand pin.  At #14 you can't drive out past the bunker on the left to get a better angle on the back left hole location.  And 18 is just ridiculous.

[Bill_McBride]

  Many seemed to require the same sort of recovery.  Its a great idea gone a bit too wild for my tastes - and I will never be convinced that these are how Ross intended them to be. 

After several times playing Royal Dornoch #2 and #10 in particular, I think those Pinehurst #2 turtleback greens are what Donald Ross had in mind.  "Diabolical" is the adjective that comes most readily to mind.

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

The 2nd green at Dornoch was actually built (in 1921) over the objections of Ross, who argued for a punchbowl green to the right (where most shots aimed at the present green tend to land!).  The 10th was built in 1946, and Ross never saw it.  In fact, there are few if any greens at Dornoch that resemble those at Pinehurst.

Rich

BTW--in response to the thread question, I was very underwhelmed the only time I played Pinehurst, partly because I expected something with the design elegance and subtlety of Dornoch, which #2 does not have.  If it ever was a "10" it was not so in my lifetime......

rfg

[Brent Hutto]

The 2nd green at Dornoch was actually built (in 1921) over the objections of Ross, who argued for a punchbowl green to the right (where most shots aimed at the present green tend to land!).

Now see, I knew I loved Donald Ross. If the 2nd had been built as the punchbowl it would have saved me about two strokes a day when we were there!

[Steve Kline]

Bryce:

It's not just those three holes you mentioned, either.  At #5 you can't drive out to the right to get a flatter lie and a more open angle for the long second shot ... it's rough up there on the flat spot.  At #7 a short hitter can't hug the bunkers to try and give himself a shorter approach shot.  At #11 you can't drive out to the left to give yourself an angle at the right-hand pin.  At #14 you can't drive out past the bunker on the left to get a better angle on the back left hole location.  And 18 is just ridiculous.

My post on holes where I'd hit it in the rough for the perfect angle and Tom's post quoted above epitomize why width is so valuable in fairways. Tom seems to prefer to hit it right on #5 to get a flatter lie and better angle since the green angles front right to back left from the fairway. However, this makes the hole play much, much longer. If I hit it right I have anywhere from 3 iron to 3 wood to the green depending on how solid my drive was. So, I like to play it down the left hand side (what formerly was anyway). I don't have the angle, but I've hit as little as 7 iron to the green that way. If you get far enough left the ball isn't that above your feet. And I actually prefer the angle over there as I'm shooting away from the dreaded miss left of that green from which there is no recovery plus the slope in fairway encourages the needed draw into the green.

On 7 when the pin is back right you really need as far left and as far down the fairway as possible. You can't do that anymore. The only time to hit it near those bunkers for me is when the pin is front left.

I agree on 11. Not can you not get the angle but going left allows you to see the green. On the right the bunker short right of the green blocks your view of the green surface just enough to throw you off.

I never really wanted to carry the bunker on 18 because the risk was huge - instant bogey if you didn't make it. However, if you did you almost got a little turboboost and could be left with as little as 8 iron into the green whereas going down the left might leave you a 5 iron.

Damn these new mowing patterns! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

I have generally defending Pinehurst for setting up the course for the their guests like it was set up for the Open, but your example is a good one.  My question is, like Matt Ward says, will Mike Davis realize that at least for individual holes fw could be much wider with about equal penalty to rough vs. fw? 

I would love to hear from someone in the know how much individual hole review goes into US Open set up.  With every fw about the same width, it would be easy to draw the conclusion that an overall mindset kicks in, vs individual hole reviews.  They must have some pretty good thinkers out there on the set up committee, no?

[Mike Hendren]

Barney coined the phrase "hit and run."  Could this thread be labeled a "walk and run?"

Just curious.

Mike

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