Do you agree with the following statement?

[Joe Bausch]

Someone of stature wrote this a number of years ago:

Nothing so completely spoils a good golf course as hard parched fairways, not only because they do not afford proper lies, but because by allowing a prodigious run upon the drive they completely destroy the distance values which are so important to make the course a fair test.

Do you in general agree with this statement?  Or does it depend upon the style of the course?  And is there a fine line between "firm and fast" and 'hard parched'?

[JESII]

I doubt, with ubiquitous irrigation systems and better agricultural expertise across the board, many courses ever get so parched that the player cannot get his club under the ball...

 

[Garland Bayley]

High handicappers have trouble with tight lies. A parched course could be no fun for a high handicappler that depends on the ball sitting up. I don't buy the run too far problem. The most parched course I played, I simply substituted teeing off with an iron instead of driver. You have to have be smart enough to adjust.

[John Moore II]

I do not totally agree with this statement, however, I do think there comes a point that a golf course can play too firm and fast. I rarely see it happen, but it is possible. If it hurts the wrists to take more than a slight divot, its too dry and hard.

[JESII]

JKM

Have you played any golf in Great Britain?

I played Deal and sandwich 10 years ago, and you couldn't believe how hard the ground was and I thought it was great...

[John Moore II]

JKM

Have you played any golf in Great Britain?

I played Deal and sandwich 10 years ago, and you couldn't believe how hard the ground was and I thought it was great...

Have not played in Britain, but I have played golf in NC on courses that have no fairway irrigation at all during a drought. Shots hit from the fairway caused dust to fly up from the ground and a slight pain in the arms if you took too much of a divot. I supposed soil type would affect what can be done, each of the courses I am thinking of have clay-type soil.

[Mike Bowline]

The line between "Firm and fast" and "Hard and parched" is indeed a thin one, IMO.

"Parched" certainly implies dusty, cracks in the ground, and dead (not dormant) grass, or worse: weeds.

So the first part of the statement I agree with, that being hard and parched fairways spoil a good round of golf, although "spoil" is a strong word that does not convey my exact feelings. A better word would be "detracts".

However, "allowing a prodigious run upon the drive" is a result of firm and fast, and I DO enjoy that part of firm conditions. Just not a result of parched fairways.

[JESII]

JKM,

Fair enough...the truth is, a drought in NC is likely much drier and longer than any drought that might hit the seaside links of SE England...or at least more frequent...and with grass probably less adaptable to long dry spells so it dies dead as opposed to just fake dying.

[Ken Moum]

Having suffered from the opposite kind of conditions most of the last five months, I yearn for hard and parched.

FWIW, I've always figured that wet golf courses overly reward the long hitter, without demanding the kind of ball control required on a fast course.

But then I am a short hitter with a better than average short game. 

I also think the lack of a "proper" lie separates the ball strikers from the hacks. And I cannot understand why the better players want to lift clean and cheat when the fairways are spotty.

K

[Sean_A]

No, I don't agree with the statement.  I would take hard/parched over wet/soggy any day.  Though, it does happen that some courses get out of control, but not too often because it should also mean that the rough is quite low and so the ball is findable and playable.  I have no qualms at all about the distance situation.  Sometimes its an advantage sometimes its a disadvantage - not so different from the wind. 

Usually when I play courses that are hard/parched as Pennard is every summer, I push the ball to the wings for a better lie and to help the fairway a bit.  I do the same thing in winter if its convenient.  I don't much see the point of playing from hard baked hoof prints etc when these sorts of lies can happen hole after hole.  I would rather do this than have to pay X amount extra in dues for conditioning.

Ciao

[Matthew Mollica]

I'm not sure I agree with it either.

I can't imagine that fairways would be so hard and parched as to so negatively impact upon a course.
If distance gains are to be had, surely accuracy is more generously rewarded?

MM

[Rich Goodale]

I've played links courses when they were as fast and firm as concrete, but when it came to playing a shot, the sand based turf allowed one to hit a proper golf shot--even a helicopter lob wedge--with the proper technique and execution.  Fast and firm on clay based golf is less golf than playing on a super-sized putting green.

[Mark Bourgeois]

What does everyone think of Ran-John's Rye review?

[Andrew Mitchell]

I don't agree either.  Was Hoylake spoilt as a golf course for the 2006 Open?

[Kirk Gill]

High handicappers have trouble with tight lies. A parched course could be no fun for a high handicappler that depends on the ball sitting up. I don't buy the run too far problem. The most parched course I played, I simply substituted teeing off with an iron instead of driver. You have to have be smart enough to adjust.

I get what you're saying, Garland, but I guess that all depends on what you're adjusting TO. I grew up playing local munis that were hard as a rock. Aerial approaches would just bounce off the back. If you tried to take a divot you'd break your wrist. I've always tended to sweep the ball myself, largely because of this issue. What was tough for me was getting used to more lush conditions.

What's interesting to me about the statement we're responding to is the notion that "by allowing a prodigious run upon the drive they completely destroy the distance values which are so important to make the course a fair test."

This would seem to have some truth to it on courses with very flat fairways......but it makes me think of how far the pros hit it on every course, how their length destroys distance values, and how the modern pro doesn't care so much about getting it in the fairway........does extremely firm and fast conditions have the same effect, or is the average player not necessarily good enough out of the rough or from poor approach angles to get the benefit of increased amounts of roll? Am I making sense?

[Joe Bausch]

FYI:  that statement was written on September 17, 1930 by one Robert Tyre Jones.

[Ken Moum]

FYI:  that statement was written on September 17, 1930 by one Robert Tyre Jones.

I'm not shocked.

But remember, he was talking about golf courses that were largely unirrigated.

There's not much left in the US that could approach the conditions he might have been describing.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

Someone of stature wrote this a number of years ago:

Nothing so completely spoils a good golf course as hard parched fairways, not only because they do not afford proper lies, but because by allowing a prodigious run upon the drive they completely destroy the distance values which are so important to make the course a fair test.

Do you in general agree with this statement?  Or does it depend upon the style of the course?  And is there a fine line between "firm and fast" and 'hard parched'?

Joe,

I don't want to derail your thread, but isn't this statement:

"but because by allowing a prodigious run upon the drive they completely destroy the distance values which are so important to make the course a fair test"

indicative of what's happened with modern golf ?

Distance has destroyed the architectural values in the context that the golfer fails to properly integrate with the features as intended by the architect

[Chris Kane]

Nothing so completely spoils a good golf course as hard parched fairways, not only because they do not afford proper lies, but because by allowing a prodigious run upon the drive they completely destroy the distance values which are so important to make the course a fair test.

I disagree with the statement.  Fairways with prodigious run will allow the ball to run out of position, Hoylake 06 being a great example.

[Jay Flemma]

I like "biscuit brown."

[KBanks]

Joe,

I for one would like more on the context of Jones' statement.

Ken

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I for one would like more on the context of Jones' statement.

Ken

Ken,

Long answer:  Jones comments were part of a larger article he wrote (wasn't he an amateur?!) for the Evening Bulletin (and I assume many other papers) just before he played at Merion trying to complete the Grand Slam.  He commented on the importance of their state-of-the-art irrigation system.  Apparently in 1916 at his first USAm at Merion the ground was very hard and he drove over the green at #8, a par 4 playing well over 300 yards.

Short answer:  I'll post the entire article later, probably Monday, when I'm back in my office.

[JESII]

What do you all make of the last two words..."fair test"?

[KBanks]

Thanks Joe. This is very interesting stuff. I look forward to reading the entire piece.

Ken

[Joe Bausch]

I think this nice article can only be posted if the threat of that little birdie of mine with an overactive digestive tract, but with good aim, is pulled out of semi-retirement.   

The article in question was penned by Bobby Jones on September 17, 1930 and published in the Evening Bulletin.  My guess would be this might have been published in many other newspapers (and how Jones could keep his amateur status while being a golf writer seems curious to me, but that is a discussion perhaps for another time).