The next great course

[TEPaul]

Gib:

Firstly, I don't really see any heated diatribes on this thread (what you might think is heated is just normal conversation between Pat and some others including me) . Secondly, there's certainly a perception, maybe not by you but others, that Wynn and Fazio are being criticized on here for building a course like Shadow Creek in the kind of location it's in.

I'm not being critical of them at all--and I can't see why anyone would think so. I've never seen the course nor any of the holes (except in some indeterminat photos) so I wouldn't know what the architecture is like. But I'd sure admit Wynn got Fazio to do just what he wanted him to do!

It's the juxtaposition of what the golf course and everything about it is to what the Nevada desert looks like and is all about that fascinates me! The golf course has to be about the farthest thing from looking like where it is of anything in the world. And when I mention where it is (in a natural context) I'm speaking of the Nevada desert not the town of Las Vegas.

Is it necessary for a golf course to look something like the natural site where it is? Well, yeah, I think it is. But maybe not if someone is trying to create an "oasis" concept or a "fantasy" concept. And again, for the type of golfer and client Wynn is after the look of Shadow Creek is probably ideal! As a completely incongruous juxtaposition to where it is it isn't much different than the whole concept of Las Vegas itself. It may not be gaudy like Vegas but the incongrous juxtaposition to the Nevada desert is just as stark as Vegas.

That's what I think is interesting only--since the architecture of the golf course I really know little about.

I'll admit I've never played so-called "desert" golf but the whole idea of the incongrous juxtaposition of all of it is really not my cup of tea. But I'm sure willing to admit I should try it, maybe I'd like it and change my mind.

Transplanting the look and style of a golf course to a completely different looking place is just something I have a bit of a hard time with I guess. Where has that kind of thing been done really except in the Nevada or desert areas of the West?

Maybe I'm just old fashioned and myopic about that kind of thing and should get over it. It's not about totally man-made or manufactured either. A former day golf course like The Lido was almost wholly made and manufactured too but at least it looked like where it was!

Before I get out to the West to see some desert golf for myself and what I consider a stark (and incongruous) juxtaposition, I'm gonna go down to Archie Struther's Twisted Dune first--another course that looks very little like the natural site it's on but a course, like Shadow Creek, that almost everyone says is a really good golf course.

I'm always willing to learn new things--I hope!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I've played a few desert courses in Las Vegas, Palm Springs and the Phoenix area.  I'm not a fan of desert golf courses, but realize, that they have to be different by design.

Most are constructed in inhospitable areas, areas hostile to closely mown grass.  The look of strips of fairway amongst the desert isn't the most appealing to me, but what would you do, tell the golfers who live there to take up tennis.

Some golf courses are for private communities, and carts are almost mandatory if you want to get from green A to tee B.
Due to this feature, I find some of them lacking in continuity.

Housing locations usually take up the prime real estate with the golf course left to weave its way on the remaining property.  Not the ideal way to design a golf course.

So, here comes Steve Wynn, with a unique idea.
He's going to eliminate the strips of grass weaving through the homes and desert by making his golf course wall to wall golf course, no interior desert, like a golf course from the sand hills of North Carolina.  And, walking is almost mandated.
Now that sounds like a good idea.

Just for reference purposes, can anyone name an exceptional golf course built in Southern Nevada from 1900 to 1980 ?
How about in the desert in Southern California, or the desert in Arizona.  Why do you think exceptional courses are rare in the desert ?
Could it be the desert environment, the lack of land suitable for good golf courses, poor designers, or just bad luck ?

Perspective can be critical in evaluating a golf course.

Some will play Shadow Creek looking for negatives
Some will play Shadow Creek looking for positives

If one can play Shadow Creek, without predispositions, attempting to enjoy themselves, and score as many pars and birdies as they can, they won't be disappointed by the architectual quality of the golf course.

It's a good GOLF COURSE.  But, that's just my opinion.

Tom MacWood,

Over the last two years the criticisms have been voluminous, especially by people who never saw Shadow Creek, let alone played it.

Gib, et. al.,

I'm not so sure, in late July, in the Desert that the course will play its best, but have fun, and let us know your thoughts when you return.

[David Wigler]

Gib,

As always, very well said.  The hole most talked about at Shadow Creek is #17.  It is simply the most visually spectacular hole on the planet not abutting an ocean.  However, that says nothing about strategy.  Clearly, my writing about Shadow's strategy would be viewed as biased based on my love of the course and general like of Fazio's new work (Not his renovation work).  If I could make a request, it would be that Eric Shortz answer your question.  I recently had the unique pleasure of reading some of Eric's work.  He is a huge Tom Doak fan and does not cut Fazio the slack that I do.  I think he could give a very evenhanded opinion of the very strong strategy holes at Shadow.  To me, the best examples of it are in 1,5,11,14, and 18.

I cannot wait to hear your opinion of the course.