Your Thoughts on How Deep Greenside Bunkers Ought to Be.....

[Bill_McBride]

I like Goldilocks bunkers - not too deep, not too shallow, just right!

It's the architect's call, that's why you guys get the big bucks! 

[Chris Cupit]

Greenside bunkers should be deep. Minimum of 3 feet below the green surface.
They should also be close to the green. You should not be able to use a triplex to mow the rough between the bunker and the green.

I, too, like the look of deep bunker right next to the greens but there is the issue of having room for the mowers to turn around on.  When the bunkers are so close it is often difficult to not just wear out the grass even with walk mowers.  You have to have some room to work with for your grounds crew.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steep and deep is fine, but speaking as a superintendent, please don't make me assign half the crew to throw sand up the faces after every rain.
Years ago, I was one of those guys with the scoop shovel, seemed like EVERY morning at Bay Hill.

Peter,

I've always favored grassed bunker slopes/faces

Jeff,

An apparent advantage in elevating a green is that it ameliorates the drainage problem encountered if the green is at grade level, with respect to creating deep bunkers and not having to worry too much about how the bunkers would drain if they were well below grade.

[Bill_McBride]

Steep and deep is fine, but speaking as a superintendent, please don't make me assign half the crew to throw sand up the faces after every rain.
Years ago, I was one of those guys with the scoop shovel, seemed like EVERY morning at Bay Hill.

Peter,

I've always favored grassed bunker slopes/faces

Jeff,

An apparent advantage in elevating a green is that it ameliorates the drainage problem encountered if the green is at grade level, with respect to creating deep bunkers and not having to worry too much about how the bunkers would drain if they were well below grade.

One of the myriad of really cool things about Hoylake is that the backs of the greenside bunkers are in most cases above the green level, so the water flows down onto the greens and mostly off the green fronts. 

You also get all kinds of interesting bounces off these bunker backs, some kindly, some not.   Here are some good examples at #2:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason Topp,

I'm glad you're a good bunker player.

I too like bunker play.

Are you a wagering man ?

I'd like to make a wager with you with regard to the average distance that you will hit your ball, from the hole, when you attempt to get out of a bunker where you can see everything, versus a bunker where the putting surface and the flagstick are not visible.

Are you willing to make the wager ?

I'll even take you to GCGC to conduct the test/wager.

[Philippe Binette]

How deep?

It's all about variety... if they are all deep, then you always play the same shot out of it...

don't follow the concept of deep bunkers on shorter holes etc... shallower on long approach, not to deep if there's another bunker across the green etc.. that creates previsible golf course...

got to surprise the player every once in a while... surprise at first create anticipation or fear the next time

[Jason Topp]

Jason Topp,

I'm glad you're a good bunker player.

I too like bunker play.

Are you a wagering man ?

I'd like to make a wager with you with regard to the average distance that you will hit your ball, from the hole, when you attempt to get out of a bunker where you can see everything, versus a bunker where the putting surface and the flagstick are not visible.

Are you willing to make the wager ?

I'll even take you to GCGC to conduct the test/wager.

Patrick:

I think you make a fair proposal.  While I would love to visit GCGC some day and take up your specific offer, who knows when logistics would allow that to happen.

In the meantime, this is my counter:

Within the next week I will find a spot where I can hit ten bunker shots from a visible spot and ten shots that are as identical as I can make it but the shot is from a deep bunker where the flagstick is only partially visible.  The shot will be in the 15-20 yard range.  I will report (1) shots within ten feet; (2) shots within five feet; and (3) total strokes to get the ball in the hole.  I think average distance is a misleading measurement because one bad measurement can throw off the average significantly. 

I do not think a totally invisible flagstick is a reasonable comparison because, for a greenside bunker, it would need to be extremely deep, the bunker shot extremely long, or feature some odd slopes.  I'd be willing to take the flag out if you think visibility is the crucial difference.

You do the same.  I'll trust your honor in reporting the results and in trying with equal effort on both types of shots.  I hope you will extend the same trust in me.

I'm not interested in a wager.  Performing the test honestly and curiosity in the result will be adequate incentive for me.  Furthermore, if we bet any significant amount, choking becomes a factor with a wager and I able to choke at any time.

Let me know if this approach works for you.  If it does, others can also take the test and report their results.  My belief is that the blind shot is not significantly more difficult as long as one can hit a proper bunker shot.

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