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Mike Hendren

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What Did Max Behr DO?
« on: July 22, 2008, 04:50:04 PM »
It seems commonplace on GCA to invoke the name of Max Behr to demonstrate architectural intellect.  His writing apparently garners much acclaim, but I'm compelled to ask:  What did he design of note and is much of his work is still played today?  I don't see him on Ran's time-line.

Please educate me.  Thanks.

Mike
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Bill_McBride

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2008, 05:29:27 PM »
Paging Mr. Paul, white courtesy phone.  He is the advocate and expert.

In addition to designing some top West Coast courses (Lakeside, Montecito, ???), he was the editor of Golf Illustrated in the late teens.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2008, 05:31:55 PM »
From reading threads here, I believe the Californians have trashed much of his work, just as they did the captain's (Thomas). I believe Racho Santa Fe is one that remains somewhat intact.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2008, 05:39:33 PM »
I see Ran has Racho Santa Fe on his to do list.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Bourgeois

Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2008, 07:24:18 PM »
Hi Mike

Question back at you: what did Soren Kierkegaard DO?

He wrote a lot about Christianity but I can't find a single religion much less church with his name on it!

Engimatically,
Mark
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Brent Hutto

Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2008, 08:17:49 PM »
So Mark, what I hear you saying is that Behr did as much for golf as Kierkegaard ever did...
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Bill Gayne

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 08:25:01 PM »
I loved him as Jethro on the Beverly Hillbillies.
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David Stamm

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO? New
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2008, 08:28:27 PM »
While TEP knows alot about Behr's writings (actually Shackelford is the real expert on him, TN as well), I can give you a modest run down on his courses.

Rancho Santa Fe GC- changed by a few architects over the years with the last being Dave Fleming before the U.S Junior Amateur. 
 


Victoria Club- Robert Ball can give a great rundown on this club. Great stuff still there and definitely his best surviing example. It's had some changes by others, but it's still has noteworthy features. The 15th there is one of the few Alps in California.

Montecito CC- Heavily changed and not much Max Behr left after HWY 101 encroached upon the property. Jon Spaulding played there fairly recently and give a better description

Montebello- Still had a decent amount of Behr's work left until just a few years ago when most (if not all) the greens changed and most of the bunkers. I believe the routing is somewhat the same.

Oakmont- Also changed quite a bit and getting ready to renovate(Schmidt/Curley). I'll be playing there at the end of the month and will present some photos before the work commences.

Meadowlark (formerly Long Beach CC)- Has been shortened and lost some it's features, but still has some quirky stuff you don't see typically in So Cal. Long hitters can shoot it to pieces today (under 6000 yds)

Lakeside- Possibly his greatest course in it's original form. Big man made sand dunes can be seen in old aerials and photos. Some of Bobby Jones instructional moviers were filmed there. Heavy flooding destroyed much of the course and subsequent changes leave little of Behr's work there.

There are others as well that Tommy N knows very well. I beleive there was El Segundo and Sepulveda (I may be wrong in remembering these two, they could be Bell NLE's) and the California pay-as-you-pay Club. I'm not sure the extent of his involvement on consulting on some work done at Olympic Club. He was a member at Wilshire and I believe Brentwood as well (and a few others). Unfortuantely, like alot of other GA archs, most of his work has been mauled.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:25:37 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 09:07:24 PM »
I've been fascinated by Behr's writing for years but I don't know that much about Behr himself and I've never seen any of his golf courses.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2008, 11:55:57 AM »
David S - thanks much for that list.

Mike - just a guess from a novice on the subject, but what I think Behr was trying to do was to encourage the fullest possible participation by the whole of the person in the sport of golf, and to advocate for a kind of golf course architecture that would allow/support/engender that degree of participation.

Off Mark's wonderful insight/analogy, I think Behr might've agreed with Kierkegaard that it was better for a 'pagan' to worship a tree with all his mind and heart and soul than it was for a believer in the one true God to worship half-heartedly and disinterestedly.  In other words, it's how much of ourselves that we invest in the act that's important; and a certain kind of golf course architecture helps us to invest most fully.   

How's that for speculative history?

Peter
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RJ_Daley

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 12:17:25 PM »
Quote
Off Mark's wonderful insight/analogy, I think Behr might've agreed with Kierkegaard that it was better for a 'pagan' to worship a tree with all his mind and heart and soul than it was for a believer in the one true God to worship half-heartedly and disinterestedly.  In other words, it's how much of ourselves that we invest in the act that's important; and a certain kind of golf course architecture helps us to invest most fully.   

Peter, that is an interesting take, and while I know nothing of Kierkegaard, nor actually have not explored Behr beyond the readily available quotes that TEPaul often provides, I do get that spiritual sense from what Behr had to say about the golf course, and it's higher design principles and qualities that interface with the spirit and/or soul of the player, when it is presented in the best architectural design.

I am still curious if there is anything to be found and read of Behr's development of a religion or spirituality that reportedly was centered around some permutation of numerology.  I wonder if it has some relationship of golf to numerology as language arts to Espiranto?   ::) :D ;D
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Dan Kelly

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 01:24:45 PM »
It is a little-known fact (because it's a little-read book) that Kierkegaard's seminal work was a treatise on golf -- encapsulating, in its title alone, everything about the game that most golfers take a lifetime to learn.

The title: "Fear and Trembling and the Sickness Unto Death."

Those of us golfers with even a modicum of Scandinavian blood understand it best.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 01:26:31 PM by Dan Kelly »
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David Stamm

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO? New
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2008, 01:28:21 PM »
 
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:09:43 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ken Moum

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2008, 01:35:01 PM »
Quote from: David Stamm on July 23, 2008, 01:28:21 PM
Some photos from Ranch Santa Fe GC.


Max in the field at RSFGC

Has anyone mentioned on here that trees are a scourge?

<grin>

Ken
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Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

RJ_Daley

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2008, 01:50:25 PM »
David, certainly one of the most fun aspects of GCa.com is when folk post those 'then and now' photos.  That is a great retrospective on that 16th hole.  All the same contour and greens surrounds seem intack, and the trees have just gotten bigger and home in background slope, etc.  But, the bones of that hole are obviously still there. 

I looked for their website, but it is temporarily down.  Can you tell us how the bunkers 'evolved' to a current stylised version from the originals.  They are very nicely shaped and maintained in the photos. 

It almost appears like some of Doak's wizards restore-remodelling work, or what we see at Riv or Pasa or Valley Club of Monte. 
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David Stamm

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2008, 02:03:11 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on July 23, 2008, 01:50:25 PM


I looked for their website, but it is temporarily down.  Can you tell us how the bunkers 'evolved' to a current stylised version from the originals.  They are very nicely shaped and maintained in the photos. 

It almost appears like some of Doak's wizards restore-remodelling work, or what we see at Riv or Pasa or Valley Club of Monte. 


The bunkers are the work of Dave Fleming. Dave used to be a super at a local public course before striking out on his own.

http://www.golfpropertiesdesign.com/golf_course_design_staff.html


I like some of the bunker work that he has done, but in spots it looks too manufactured and the course has quite a bit of artificial mounding. It certainly has a more striking look about it compared to what Behr had originally done, I just wished he had toned it down and made it fit the surrounds a bit more. The Rainville's had done some work here in the past and I believe Perry/PB Dye did as well. What we see today for the most part is Flemings bunkers and greens. The routing is somewhat the same, but the creek that runs through the property (seen in the schematic) has sadly been taken out of play.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

RJ_Daley

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2008, 02:16:19 PM »
The old hand drawn schmatic doesn't seem to really convey what we see in the vintage photos on 16, nor the acuteness of the dogleg you describe.  I'd love to see any other vintage you may have...
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David Stamm

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO? New
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2008, 02:38:59 PM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on July 23, 2008, 02:16:19 PM
The old hand drawn schmatic doesn't seem to really convey what we see in the vintage photos on 16, nor the acuteness of the dogleg you describe.  I'd love to see any other vintage you may have...


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« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:10:09 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Peter Pallotta

Re: What Did Max Behr DO?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2008, 02:48:01 PM »
Thanks again, David.

Call me superficial, but isn't that vintage photo of the tee shot on 18 just one of the prettiest things? The scale (and width) just seems so right...

Peter
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David Stamm

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Re: What Did Max Behr DO? New
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 02:56:39 PM »
Quote from: Peter Pallotta on July 23, 2008, 02:48:01 PM
Thanks again, David.

Call me superficial, but isn't that vintage photo of the tee shot on 18 just one of the prettiest things? The scale (and width) just seems so right...

Peter


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Guys, just so there isn't any confusion, I chose to take down the club history photos. Upon further reflection, I don't want to cause any misunderstandings with the members I know there. I apologize for any confusion. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 04:15:47 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr
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