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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2011, 09:16:30 PM »
Kalen...

It sounds almost as bad as Cypress.   :D

Touche Mac!!  ;)

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2011, 09:17:41 PM »
Why exactly does the Old Course have a poor routing?

Well, let me see, its shaped like a fish hook. Has numerous shared fairways (the shared greens are not a poor feature) that make play fairly dangerous. My gosh, I thought I was going to die twice when I played, guy banana's one off 9 as I'm walking down 10 and almost hits me, then as we're on the 11th green, guy pull hooks one right in the middle of us from the 7th fairway. I mean, the routing is basically linear out and back. Sorry, if I really have to describe this more, I'm not sure what to say.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2011, 09:29:25 PM »
So it's an unsafe dogtrack then?  Is this Scott Hoch in sheep's clothing?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:54:21 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jamie Van Gisbergen

Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2011, 09:37:41 PM »
So it's an unsafe dogtrack then?  Is this Scott Hoke in sheep's clothing?

Never said it was a dogtrack. But let me ask you this: put that same routing, same set-up, same everything, on a standard public golf course ANYWHERE and what would you think of the routing then? I'm sorry, you try to build a golf course with that same routing and set-up today on a municipal/park golf course and you'd be laughed out of the business.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2011, 09:56:01 PM »
Frankly given some of the courses I've seen, thinning the herd wouldn't be such a bad thing.  ;)  Perhaps the current economy will be the 21st Century Darwin World Tour....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2011, 10:35:56 PM »
Mac,

You were talking about Highland Links in MA, weren't you?!

Whoops. Any time one of us Canadians sees "Highland Links" our passion gets the best of us  ;D

Not sure if you were joking or not...but of course Highland Links in Canada.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2011, 11:06:00 PM »
poor routing by definition makes a poor golf course as the routing is inherently part of the golf course  ???

thanks
It's all about the golf!

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2011, 11:16:52 PM »
In this market any opportunity to improve an existing golf course is an accomplishment.

I think improving a bunker, a tee or a green can make a hole good.
A bunch of good holes makes a good course.

I agree with what Mike Young said about maintenance making it good.
I can make a hole better by making it easier to maintain - and thus improving the playability.

It won't be great.
But I think I can make most courses good*.
*My definition of good is a Doak 5-6 - significantly better than average or a Doak 3

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jim Nugent

Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2011, 12:06:38 AM »
Great post from Sean Arble, in the opinion of someone (me) who has never seen TOC.  Can anyone give the opposing view?  i.e. why TOC does in fact have great routing, or if not, why it's a 10 anyway? 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2011, 12:33:46 AM »
The Old Course routing is great because of a variety of holes - including some playing direction
The wind & the views
Use of the natural land forms - some very outstanding holes in the world
Playing back into and along the very cool town of St. Andrews

I don't disagree with the stretches in the same direction and #9.
That does drop it a point for me too, but that makes the course a 10 - it would have been an 11

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2011, 12:44:23 AM »
I love great holes. Give me 18 great holes with an awkward routing and bingo, I'd like it and repeat play.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Frank Pont

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Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2011, 03:15:55 AM »
This thread made me realize again that in Europe about 99% of golfers walk, and in stark contrast in the US most use carts (what percentage?). Maybe that is why as an European architect I am so keen on keeping the walking distances between green and tee as short as possible. Walking IMHO gives one a much better sense of the routing of the golf course and how it fits in the landscape.

Jud, I hope you are right about the average Joe still registering a great routing at a subconcious level, just don't know how to prove it. I was just alarmed by my quite knowledgeable golfing friend not putting as much emphasis on routing as I would have expected.

The thread also made me realize I'm lucky not having to deal much with building golf in housing environments. Most of the courses I build are on flat sandy farmland, but at least there are no houses....

On TOC, many of the oldest routings by definition were out and back, thereby leading to less diversified routings. But again green to tee distance is very short and the green sites are quite interesting. For me TOC is an interesting example, since it shows how one could build great golf courses with very little earthmoving on basically flat ground.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2011, 05:05:24 AM »
Frank

Yes, the walk in combination with the greens and a handful of great holes means TOC is still a great course despite its flaws.  I would also say that its uniqueness is a huge positive for me.  If you get a ton of people saying its a great course AND it is unique then we are talking about one of the giants if not the giant of the game.  Finally, the champiosnhip pedigree with so much funk and yet still very playable for EVERYONE is also a huge positive for me.   Its saddens me to think as time goes on people have less and less time for championship funk which eventually means less time for funk period.  The day Prestwick was removed from the rota should be seen as one of the blackest marks against the R&A ever recorded. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2011, 06:29:44 AM »

   The day Prestwick was removed from the rota should be seen as one of the blackest marks against the R&A ever recorded.  


now that's something we can both agree on!   oh, and there's always time for championship funk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JbUP-skb7E

« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 06:50:59 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2011, 09:11:12 AM »
I played Vista Verde in Scottsdale last week and it is interesting that the course was built as part of a housing development but the houses were never built because of the weak economy.  The routing at times is a bit awkward as you have to double back a bit or take any extra long walk between holes but overall it still works okay.  BTW: Using a discounter it cost less than $50 to play the course and it was in great shape and more enjoyable than most desert golf.

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2011, 07:35:07 AM »
Are there any great courses routed through a neighborhood?

Has anyone played Highland Links?  Can you talk about that courses routing?

Who better to talk about the routing at Highland Links than Ian Andrew.
http://ianandrewsgolfdesignblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/routing-study-highland-links-highlands.html

The beauty of the long walks between some of the holes only adds to the majesty of this course. The 800m walk along the Clyburn between 12 and 13, gives the golfer time and space to think about what is truly important in life.
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2011, 07:45:08 AM »
One of the few walks (perhaps only walk) I have taken between green and tee which was more than what I would consider normal and that I actually enjoyed was between #s 14 and 15 at Crail.  It was such a good walk that I don't know how long it was.  My point is that I get all the walking (and beauty if the course be beautiful) I need on the course.  I don't have much need for a walk which allows time to contemplate the meaning of life while playing golf. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2011, 07:48:48 AM »
Sean, you need to come down south - very south - and walk from 4 to 5 at Barnbougle Dunes. Breathtaking.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2011, 08:05:53 AM »
One of the few walks (perhaps only walk) I have taken between green and tee which was more than what I would consider normal and that I actually enjoyed was between #s 14 and 15 at Crail.  It was such a good walk that I don't know how long it was.  My point is that I get all the walking (and beauty if the course be beautiful) I need on the course.  I don't have much need for a walk which allows time to contemplate the meaning of life while playing golf. 

Ciao

Couldn't agree more... I can't think of a single case of a green to tee walk actually enhancing the playing qualities of a course (aside from the necesseties of the actual routing / design)

Walk from 14 to 15 on Crail is 275m incidentally...

Bill_McBride

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Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2011, 09:24:03 AM »
One of the few walks (perhaps only walk) I have taken between green and tee which was more than what I would consider normal and that I actually enjoyed was between #s 14 and 15 at Crail.  It was such a good walk that I don't know how long it was.  My point is that I get all the walking (and beauty if the course be beautiful) I need on the course.  I don't have much need for a walk which allows time to contemplate the meaning of life while playing golf. 

Ciao

I love that walk too.  At the right time of year the gorse is in bloom on the hill to your right, and the ocean's always to the left, sometimes crashing on the rocks.   And ahead lies the very short par 4 15th, where you're disappointed to not make 3, and the Spion Kop 16th, where a 4 is acceptable!

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2011, 09:39:09 AM »
I am not positive that I have the holes right, but the walk between 14 and 15 (I think) at Friar's Head is awesome. He new deck they built allows you to walk along the sand dune, and try to somehow slow down and delay the impending end to you round. I thought it was a great walk and agreat time in thbe round for it.

Mike Hendren

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Re: Can a golf course with poor routing be good?
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2011, 09:56:09 AM »
There is an uncanny resemblance between The Old Course's routing and the Union's defensive position at Gettysburg.  Coincidence?

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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