course toughness and the paying public

[George Pazin]

Brad:

Pete Dye is entirely in agreement with your conclusions.  He used to tell me that people did not play Pebble Beach because it was beautiful, they play it because it's damned hard and they want to be challenged.

There are plenty of damned hard challenging places that would be empty at the prices Pebble charges....

[Kalen Braley]

Brad:

Pete Dye is entirely in agreement with your conclusions.  He used to tell me that people did not play Pebble Beach because it was beautiful, they play it because it's damned hard and they want to be challenged.

Clearly, it's possible to go too far on that end of the spectrum, but a course that doesn't challenge has no hold on potential return visitors unless the service and conditioning are exceptional.

I guess Bayonet and Black Horse just down the street went too far on this end of the spectrum as they are making thier courses more playable....much to the chagrin of Tom H. who loved thier toughness!! 

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:

Pete Dye is entirely in agreement with your conclusions.  He used to tell me that people did not play Pebble Beach because it was beautiful, they play it because it's damned hard and they want to be challenged.

Clearly, it's possible to go too far on that end of the spectrum, but a course that doesn't challenge has no hold on potential return visitors unless the service and conditioning are exceptional.

I guess Bayonet and Black Horse just down the street went too far on this end of the spectrum as they are making thier courses more playable....much to the chagrin of Tom H. who loved thier toughness!! 

Just do understand about that that it is a one off, a course that was completely unique in brutality and by softening lost all sense of purpose and any bit of uniqueness.  Thus I do weep for it.

But in general I'd say stupidly hard courses earn that adverb honestly.

TH

[Brad Huff]

I think we all inherently think we're better than we are and even though we probably wouldn't admit it to our friends would rather get beat up by a tough course than play well on an easy one.

There is certain a lot of wisdom in what you say. However, I'd add that many - maybe even most, outside of this site - don't even play well on easy courses. In some respects, it almost doesn't matter, so many just go with the flow, hoping for the occasional heroic shot. They can live with not playing well if they have the occasional moment of glory.

Excellent point.  As a coach I firmly believe what you say.  It doesn't matter where they put the basket if you can't shoot...

Tom- I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I disagree with Pete about Pebble.  Maybe that was true at one point.  I'd like to think I'm like most people in that I want to play Pebble because it's Pebble...regardless of toughness.  For what they charge, I can get challenged 10 different times.

I should add, I'm a 5 handicap that really appreciates the esoteric quality of a round of golf.  I don't think I'm in the fat part of any of the golf bell curves.  I love the game of my mind and my ability vs the designer and the earth.  I know this site still loves this stuff and that's what attracted me to join.  THIS is what I think we're really losing in golf.  Like Jeff said, the money guys want you GCAs to hit magic numbers. (Is that a 475 yd par 4 with impossible carry over water in your pants or are you just glad to see me?) 

I love the idea of the short par 4, the short par 3 that challenges your mind and skill.  I literally spend 75% of my coaching time teaching kids HOW to play a golf course.  I caddied for one of them in the Byron Nelson Pro Am.  The pro made the comment, "That's why it's called playing golf and not playing swing."

[Jeff_Brauer]

The first time I played Pebble, I was behind a honeymoon couple - she obviously rarely if ever golfed and it was a consistent hit and kiss routine.....I am sure they played it for the experience although even then they only had eyes for each other.....my computer monitor is even fogging up as I type!