Inflection Point on Desination Golf...How far is Too far to go...

[Chip Gaskins]

So the Links of North Dakota went to auction about five years ago and sold for about $1.2 million.

Someone recently mentioned it being sold again for as little as $200k because "The place might actually have a negative enterprise value since it is so remote that you are virtually certain to sustain operating losses"

On the flip side...Sand Hills has been by all accounts a huge success. Ballyneal is one of the best courses built in the past 50 years and will certain find its way in to the upper echelon, Sutton Bay has been wildly successful, Dismal is finding its way, Wild Horse is fantastic...

Soooo....where is the the very fine line on "how far is too far" to travel for destination golf..

Barndoulge is making it...though the crowd going there is recession proof and fly in first class on Qantas or their own G5

[John_Conley]

If you are going to start a thread, it may help to have your facts in order.  It was 6 years, not the 5 I suspected, and the course sold for about a third of what I remembered.
--
Grit and Gravel : Buyer keeps N. Dakota gem local

Mike Stachura
The best little golf course in Dakota is now the best little bargain in golf.

The Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort (....11/42), the No. 2 course in North Dakota, was sold at auction in late February for just $425,000. A throwback to Donald Ross and Perry Maxwell, the linksy layout lies on the shore of Lake Sakakawea at the end of a crushed-rock road.

The new local owners plan to keep the same minimalist setup (no full-service restaurant, no hotel). They're just fine with the nearest lodging being 30 miles away, despite having another 240 acres at their disposal (a second 18 has been discussed). The understated entryway won't change, either, says one of the new owners. "Doesn't bother us," says Marv Kaiser. "Just bothers those outsiders. Hell, I drive on more gravel roads in a day than they see in a year."

Though its $35 green fee was high for the local market, it's a steal for the adventuresome golfer, almost as much of a steal, apparently, as owning it.

Red Mike reopens in mid-April. Call 701-568-2600 or visit www.redmike.com.

COPYRIGHT 2002 Golf Digest Companies

[Chip Gaskins]

John-

Thanks for the update.  So a few things that jump out...marketing, marketing marketing that is, unless you are sold out as a private club.  Plus, you have to have onsite lodging.  Golfers spend a lot of money after play drinking, smoking, eating, and sleeping.

Chip

[Bill_McBride]

John-

Thanks for the update.  So a few things that jump out...marketing, marketing marketing that is, unless you are sold out as a private club.  Plus, you have to have onsite lodging.  Golfers spend a lot of money after play drinking, smoking, eating, and sleeping.

Chip

I think one of the things that makes the Bandon resort is that there is literally nothing to do there but play golf, drink, eat and sleep.

[John_Conley]

Chip, in case you aren't familiar with the history here...

Someone opened Red Mike hoping to have a superior golf experience for that market and guessed wrong.  People, aside from Brad Klein, haven't been able to get there easily and folks from the neighboring (30 miles?) city weren't willing to pay a premium to play there.  At $35 a round, it seems cheap to me.  Problem is, that is about twice what people are accustomed to playing in whatever the city is.  Williston?

Sand Hills came to be in a different fashion.  Youngscap had a land option for a year.  With 10 days to go he didn't have all the money he needed.  A late rally and he did, and only then did he decide to move forward.  He had enough members to be viable.

Is your thread about how far is too far to go, or is it about why nobody wants to own Red Mike?

Golf course owners are in trouble.  It is bad now and will get worse.  Some will be immune, but most can't escape.  Funny you mention Ballyneal.  I heard they are also struggling financially.  How many members do they have?

I played a great course last week.  Didn't see 10 houses.  How on earth will they pay for it all?  Plans to eventually have 54 holes, I can't see them adding a second course in the next 10 years.

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip, in case you aren't familiar with the history here...

Someone opened Red Mike hoping to have a superior golf experience for that market and guessed wrong.  People, aside from Brad Klein, haven't been able to get there easily and folks from the neighboring (30 miles?) city weren't willing to pay a premium to play there.  At $35 a round, it seems cheap to me.  Problem is, that is about twice what people are accustomed to playing in whatever the city is.  Williston?

John-

I did not know the history of Red Mike, thanks.  Nor did I know how close Sand Hills seemed to cut it.  Wow, look how close they cut it!

What is your hypothesis on Destination Golf?  Bandon could not be more of a success and yet you see these great sites in the Mid-West struggle...does the ocean view mean that much!!!?

Chip

[Chris Kane]

Barndoulge is making it...though the crowd going there is recession proof and fly in first class on Qantas or their own G5

I would be staggered if the G5 crowd comprises any more than 1% of rounds at Barnbougle.  Most of their rounds would come from Tasmanians and mainland Australians.  With the cost of air travel increasing, they can't possibly be recession proof.

If our economy follows yours, I presume they will struggle like everyone else.

[John Moore II]

Bandon works because it has onsite lodging. Sand Hills has worked because its ultra-private and has a membership to support having a great course. There is no limit to how far people will travel to play great golf, but you must have something else there. Links of ND doesn't work because they have nothing else. Build a nice clubhouse with restaurant and some lodges and you can be successful there. But without that, you're asking people to commute from basically "nowhere" into "deeper nowhere." Thats not asking for success. Bandon and Sand Hills ask people to commute from "somewhere" to "somewhere."

[Adam Clayman]

John Conley, I'm quite sure your facts are wrong regarding both BN & SH. Where do you get your info?

[Andy Troeger]

I wonder if the Links at North Dakota doesn't struggle because its so inexpensive, yet at the same time costs so much to get to for out of towners. It seems logical to spend the travel dollars to get to a Bandon/Sand Hills that's considered one of the elite in the country. Why spend that kind of money to go play a $35 public course when you can play one down the street. Evidently its a MUCH better $35 course than most, but when it costs $300-400 to get there the round becomes a heck of a lot more expensive for destination travellers.

[John Burzynski]

No offense to North Dakota, but it probably suffers compared to Bandon because it doesn't have abreathtaking ocean view out its back door. 

I think that too many people equate the Plains and Midwest of this country with being flat and unimaginative, they just don't give these areas a chance for the tourism (golf or otherwise) that the coasts seem to get.   Bandon has that romantic golf idea of linksland on the ocean, whereas Sand Hills or any other course int he middle of the country doesn't have an ocean to augment its tourism.

Just an observation, I have no problem with courses in the Plains, but I'll bet given the choice to make a once in a lifetime or once every few years trip to Bandon on the ocean or somewhere else in the Plains, to the average Joe and his wife or golf buddies, the ocean wins every time.

[Kalen Braley]

Bandon also has something these other destinations don't have which is several top notch golf courses. Its not just about ocean views because those can be had by several courses up and down both the west and east coast.

I have to agree most with Andy.  Who is going to travel way out of thier way to play North Dakota Links?  It has to be something very very special like a Ballyneal or Sand Hills, but I suspect its no where near the league of those two.

[Phil McDade]

Isn't the relevant comparison here (to the Links of ND) Wild Horse? Ballyneal, SHills and Bandon seem so different -- as an economic golf model -- from the Links of ND that the comparison is really off, other than the shared reality of remoteness. Why has Wild Horse succeeded and the Links of ND struggled? (My own thought is that Wild Horse isn't quite as remote as the Links, is probably a better course, and had some economic tie ins -- the selling of a few lots -- that Big Mike did not. Other thoughts?)

[Larry_Keltto]

Why has Wild Horse succeeded and the Links of ND struggled? (My own thought is that Wild Horse isn't quite as remote as the Links, is probably a better course, and had some economic tie ins -- the selling of a few lots -- that Big Mike did not. Other thoughts?)

Wild Horse also has the pride of an entire community behind it. I played with a local, and he told me about all the work that people in the town did during WH's construction. Folks would finish for the day at their jobs, and then they would come over to Wild Horse and help out in any way they could. Golf's equivalent of a barn-raising?

[John_Conley]

John Conley, I'm quite sure your facts are wrong regarding both BN & SH. Where do you get your info?

I hear voices.  Correct any inaccuracies.  I'm curious to know how many members these clubs have.  Ballyneal.  Sand Hills.  Dismal River.  Usually when you ask a place how many members they have you don't get an answer unless they are full or close to it.

[John_Conley]

Wild Horse also has the pride of an entire community behind it.

Larry, you might think the key word of that sentence is 'pride'.  I'll cite the difference between Wild Horse and Red Mike as 'community'.  Gothenburg is a populated area on a busy road compared to something truly in the middle of nowhere.

[Adam Clayman]

Another relevant aspect is where Dan & Dave just came from.

 LND was built for 300k. Stephen Kay, and the shaper (who is originally from ND), waived their fees.

Visiting the area is, in hindsight, a great experience. Imagine the loneliness of Sand Hills with a massive river system. Thoughts of Lewis and Clark's adventures, seeing the long looks for the first time is both awesome and educational.
 The gca may not be comparable to other world class venues, but, as stand alone courses for people who do not nit pick over such minutia, they represent the sport well.

[Jim Johnson]

Adam, any idea why architect Kay waived his fees?

JJ

[Adam Clayman]

JJ,
I don't recall his specific reasoning. Perhaps it was for the opportunity to work on a perfect medium? He did tell us that the soil was tested and needed no augmentation according to the usga specs.
 Since he is a professor, getting into the dirt has to be a nice change of pace.

[Ron Farris]

"how far is too far" for destination golf?

There are way too many factors to answer this question without qualification.  I feel that one has to consider the architecture, the maintenance, the accomodations, the food, the transportation, the cost, and the weather, in an effort to quantify the Overall Golfing Experience to determine what is too far. 

Personally, I live 3 hours from Sutton Bay, 3.5-4 hours from Sand Hills, about 5 hours from Red Mike, 5 hours from Hawtree, Devil's Tower ins 1.5 hours away, maybe 3.5 hours from Ballyneal, and 3.5 hours from Bully Pulpit.  Great golf and relatively affordable!


Would I drive back to Red Mike to pay $35 for a round of golf - No
Would I drive to Ballyneal and pay $400 for a round of golf - Yes
Would I drive to Sutton Bay and pay $400 for around of golf, meal, and accommodations - Yes, maybe - depends on if kids need soccer shoes or if .
Would I pay $400 to introduce someone to Sand Hills or Prairie Club - absolutely.
Would I drive to Wild Horse and play golf for $?? - heck yeah if it was associated with a trip to the area.
Would I play Bayside if I was passing thru - not likely

Where does my line start:  Good Architecture at a reasonable price, ($400 all inclusive) within 4 hours drive at this point with regard to local destination golf - if that is such a thing  

Bandon is likely an exception for me.

[Jim Johnson]

John, is it actually for sale now? (I guess everything in life is for sale) 

I'm hoping to make it there in a few weeks for a couple of rounds.

JJ