[Kyle Harris]

...could anyone on here design a passably fun golf course?

Let's eliminate extremes such as placing 500 bunkers around the golf course or building putting greens better suited for a clown's mouth.

This may be another how much value is the routing thread, but it's curious to me regardless.

Anyone care to try?

[RJ_Daley]

Only if they know a reasonable amount about drainage, soils, grading, irrigation design, and golf strategic principles.   Passably fun?  Probably?  ?consistently functional... maybe not.

[Michael Dugger]

Nobody will dare answer this question because they'll get shredded to pieces around here....

But I'd take RJ, Slag and myself and give it a whirl. 

We don't need the routing, either, we'll do that ourselves too.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think most on here would be reasonably capable. Why not try by routing a course on a squared parcel of land 1000m x 700m, clubhouse is in the SW corner, site fairly flat with just 5 metres of consisent fall South to North. No vegatation.

[James Boon]

That depends upon your definition of fun as one persons fun could be another persons nightmare? For instance, to me it can't get more fun than a few blind shots and some pretty tricky greens with some wild undulations and plenty of run off areas that test the short game. To others, fun may be flat and short and easy so that they can get plenty of birdies...

Cheers

James

[RJ_Daley]

Adrian, that is all well and good, but as described, such is only an exercise of a series of stick lines and geometry, no more complicated than a game of checkers.  

No matter what, you must have info on specific topo, subsurface survey of  soil and rock, perc, and an available water assessment, and drainage of outlying area of property as well.   The whole real function of routing is to assess all these other factors and still make the route work, golf wise.  Without the factor, it is a paper exercise.  

[Matt_Cohn]

It's like everything else in the world. We don't know nearly as much as we think we do.

[Melvyn Morrow]

No problems at all – give me the land and £22 million and armed
with templates I see no difficulties whatsoever. Drainage, who needs
to worry about that because in a few years time according to the
doom mongers water will be in short supply thanks to global warming
so drainage will not be required.

The routing is in the blood or is it the love of Nature or perhaps in all
the books on golf. May even have picked up some tips from here, but
then perhaps not. Do we ever actually discuss golf course architecture
on here – I can’t remember.

Perhaps all we may have learnt is how not to do this or that. Having said that has there ever been a serious discussion on here about the real impact of the No Walking Courses on golf and in particular Golf Course Architecture?

But as for routing, you have either go it or not.

Kyle, before I start need to know the money is deposited in my Swiss Bank Account.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

If you've got a good piece of land and a good routing, you ought to be able to come up with something, unless you try too hard.  Melvyn is exactly wrong there ... you'd be better off with a good piece of property and no money, than with a flat piece of ground and a lot of $$ to screw it up.

[David Stamm]

  ... you'd be better off with a good piece of property and no money, than with a flat piece of ground and a lot of $$ to screw it up.

FWIW, I agree with this, Tom. I've seen a few courses done by some unnamed architects on decent pieces or property that were limited on budget and they turned out to be some of the designers best courses.


"God builds golf links and the less man meddles the better for all concerned."- Hebert Fowler

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom, I was joking.

[Philippe Binette]

first, it has nothing to do with design concepts. It has to do with building a complex technical project.

1% chance


Anybody can walk a construction once it's half done and say, add a bunker here, put a grassy hollow there and look good... envision the course, dirt work before construction is another task.

[Kyle Harris]

I was more thinking along the lines of Tom Doak showing up at your door with a routing and that's it. You put in everything else.

I would imagine all the soil and drainage issues are thought of with the routing and it merely becomes a matter of constructing the features. The greensites are already located, so all you have to do is tie in the contour (or don't) to what's there. Poke a few bunkers here and there and stagger the tees accordingly.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

That's about right.  But, to go back to your question, if all you're doing is tying in the greens, poking a few bunkers here and there, and staggering the tees accordingly, have you really designed anything at all?  Or did I really do it?

[Jeff_Mingay]

first, it has nothing to do with design concepts. It has to do with building a complex technical project.

1% chance


Anybody can walk a construction once it's half done and say, add a bunker here, put a grassy hollow there and look good... envision the course, dirt work before construction is another task.

Philippe makes a good point. It's pretty simple to be a "golf course designer" once someone else has routed a course and figured out all the cuts and fills. The "real" golf course architect can route holes effectively and figure out an efficient construction plan.

[RJ_Daley]

Anybody can walk a construction once it's half done and say, add a bunker here, put a grassy hollow there and look good... envision the course, dirt work before construction is another task.

Just ask David Moriarty.... or Hugh Wilson, or his love great great grandchild, Flip...

oooh the devil made me do it...

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

That's about right.  But, to go back to your question, if all you're doing is tying in the greens, poking a few bunkers here and there, and staggering the tees accordingly, have you really designed anything at all?  Or did I really do it?

Tom,

I'm not quite sure. That question is the thought experiment behind the question really and I was hoping to generate some discussion around that very question.

What say you?

I worked at a golf course where the design was done by the owner after he fired Geoff Cornish but used Cornish's routing. He had worked with Rees Jones on his other project in the Pinehurst area and felt qualified to do the design based on his experience with Rees.

The design spent a cycle in the Top 25 in PA, but I wouldn't even put it in the Top 25 in Philadelphia. Overuse of wetlands, wild greens and poor bunkering ruled the day, but the routing is fairly good.

Does the same apply for a master planned community where the golf corridors are limited by other development?

[DMoriarty]

Kyle:

That's about right.  But, to go back to your question, if all you're doing is tying in the greens, poking a few bunkers here and there, and staggering the tees accordingly, have you really designed anything at all?  Or did I really do it?

Around here, doesn't this depend upon whether or not Kyle is from Philadelphia? 

More (but not too) seriously, it would be fun to try.

Tom, don't you think most would muck it up even with the routing?   Part of what would be interesting would be to see whether we are too dense to figure it out even with a road map.

[Bill_McBride]

Nobody will dare answer this question because they'll get shredded to pieces around here....

But I'd take RJ, Slag and myself and give it a whirl. 

We don't need the routing, either, we'll do that ourselves too.

I spoke to the Slagster a couple of times while in Oregon until today, and found out he was away from Portland helping to build a new course near Walla Walla, Washington!

He is the sub doing a lot of the grading, drainage excavation, and a bit of this and that.  Dan Hixon, Portland GCA who designed Bandon Crossing and recent revisions to Columbia-Edgewater, is the architect.  Dan Proctor is doing most of the shaping except where Norbert / Slag can elbow his way in with the D-4.

I thought about driving over there to check this out, but it's 4.5 hours over to Walla Walla, a little past the curiosity range.

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