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Neil_Crafter

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Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« on: July 19, 2008, 07:00:36 PM »
Just thought this might have warranted a separate discussion so I've brought this over from the Sunningdale thread I started.

I have now heard back from Ray Haddock concerning the Eden and the Spirit of St Andrews. Apparently the trade edition of Spirit was edited by the Sleeping Bear Press people (not by him) and the "(Mackenzie and H.S.Colt)" line was added by them. This edition was "considerably edited" in his words. He says it does not appear in the limited collectors edition which was printed verbatim.

Ray's comment was that the Eden was a Colt design with Mackenzie as his kind of assistant and he was on site. I'm not sure how he knows this.

I am very disappointed to hear about the amount of editing in the standard edition and I am now going to have to buy an expensive collectors edition (around US$200 or so) to find out what Mackenzie himself actually wrote and what were the words of the SBP editors. A scandal I say!

Any views? Or should I not be so surprised?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2008, 07:24:05 PM »
Neil

I will repeat my views made earlier to you.  Any work published posthumously should be viewed with if not suspicion then with a critical eye.

While as Tom Doak wrote the words may be "100% MacKenzie," the editing process can change the author's meaning.  This may be purposeful or accidental* owing to the editor's attempt to resolve something unclear in the original.

An example from above: "Any work published posthumously should be viewed."  Not the same thing!

Mark

*Why are copy editors called "vampires?" Because they come out at night and suck all life from your writing!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 07:33:21 PM »
...we could go in halfsies. I'll keep it at my house and you can stop by any time -- I'll even leave you a key!

I would say if the collector's edition contains a "collectors index" it would be worth the scratch.  How tired are you of thumbing through your copy every other day for a reference?

Mark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2008, 07:34:31 PM »
Neil:

I was aware that the publisher left out a fairly long section (referencing world politics) that he thought was too politically incorrect to publish in this day and age.  I wasn't aware of the smaller omissions or edits.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 10:24:43 PM »
Tom
What was the nature of his politically incorrect opinions? Are they included in the collector's edition?

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2008, 10:40:50 PM »
Neil,

Thanks for following up on this.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 11:16:01 PM »

I have now heard back from Ray Haddock concerning the Eden and the Spirit of St Andrews. Apparently the trade edition of Spirit was edited by the Sleeping Bear Press people (not by him) and the "(Mackenzie and H.S.Colt)" line was added by them. This edition was "considerably edited" in his words. He says it does not appear in the limited collectors edition which was printed verbatim.

 
I am very disappointed to hear about the amount of editing in the standard edition and I am now going to have to buy an expensive collectors edition (around US$200 or so) to find out what Mackenzie himself actually wrote and what were the words of the SBP editors. A scandal I say!

Any views? Or should I not be so surprised?


I'm disappointed to hear this, but not surprised. I w/ you, Neal, now I want the real one.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 03:22:34 AM »
Mackenzie was a strong anti-communist in his political views and he wasn't afraid to express them. The last of his 1927 articles on his Round the World trip is given over to politics and perhaps SBP didn't want to ruffle any feathers - however, when you consider the book was 60 years old or so when they published it, its hard to see how anyone could be offended by them. If portions of the manuscript were left out and others edited, shouldn't the publisher say so at the start of the book? If that's what Mackenzie wanted in his book why would SBP think they knew better to cut it like this.

Mark
halfsies and kept at you place? I'll agree only if you stump for my airfares when I need to come and look at it! And yes, an index would have been nice too!

It would be nice if someone who has both editions took a look at what the differences are.



David Stamm

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Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 01:43:46 PM »
Mackenzie was a strong anti-communist in his political views and he wasn't afraid to express them. 




It's amazing he and Hunter got along.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 04:32:29 PM »
By the time MacK wrote SofSA (1932 or so), Hunter had changed his political stripes by 180 degrees.

MacK, Hunter, Behr, and Crane were all rabid anti-anything that smacked of the government, let alone being anti-communists and anti-socialists, .

Crane detested Roosevelt and the New Deal and wrote a political fantasy premised on the idea that FDR died early on and there was no New Deal. MacK didn't live long enough, but I'd guess he would have felt much the same way.

Behr wrote op-eds for various California newspapers up until the time of his death that give new meaning to the term "conservative." Wow.  I would guess that he was a Bircher.

These weren't your Ike, Bob Taft or Everett Dirksen main line GOP guys. They were all pretty hard core.

I've read stuff by MacK where he went off on some political topics. Can't remember where. But given those passages, I have some mild sympathy for the editors that excised it. It would have given a peek of the man behind the myth, but it is certainly irrelevant to a book on gca.


Bob
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 11:13:10 AM by BCrosby »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2008, 06:32:43 PM »
Bob, with respect, I'd say that whatever Mackenzie chose to put in his book was up to him and I personally don't see it as irrelevant. I know Golf Illustrated in 1927 published his political views. I'm just not certain I want people at SBP deciding what of Mackenzie's words they will allow us to read, without even saying they have edited. While you expect spelling errors and the like to be corrected from an old manuscript you don't expect major deletions and insertions that are not noted as being by the editor, just my view.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 06:58:38 PM »
Neil
I agree with you. Leave it at is. I'm especially disapointed in the sanitizing of the 'politcally incorrect' sections. It reminds of the complaints from a vocal minority about exposing Crump's suicide. There has been tendency to romanticize these guys, which I believe also leads to inaccurate attributions among other mistakes, IMO they go hand in hand. These men were human with human weaknesses...there is no good reason to whitewash those weaknesses. Its important to get accurate and complete picture of historical figures, be they politicians, artists or golf architects.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 10:56:46 PM »
Well said Tom

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 11:53:32 PM »
The recent www.oldgolfauctions.com had a limited edition copy which went unsold (item 953). Think it is still available at set price, first served. Email info on their web
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:56:16 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2008, 01:32:12 AM »
Pete, thanks.
yes, I snapped that up earlier today as I was following that auction.
Seems a decent price(relatively speaking).
Neil

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 04:33:14 AM »
I’m annoyed to read the latest revelation about SBP, but am not surprised, either, as the firm enjoyed a poor reputation among writers, editors and publishers for its editorial liberties. Allowing one text version to appear in a “regular” edition, while another “inside dope” manuscript flourished at the higher rate, is skating on thin ice. Pretty low-brow, too!

In general publishing terms, it is entirely acceptable for a higher-priced version to contain a Tip-In Page of Authenticity, be leather-bound, limited in print-run, contain a famous signature, or utilise appealing design features not found in the cheaper (trade) version. But even accounting for these differences, dual versions/formats usually purport to disseminate the same message. And where they don’t, it’s always good form to point this out to the readership.     


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2008, 05:49:27 AM »
PD
Thanks for the insights from someone in the engine room of golf book publishing. To say I am disappointed would be a fair assessment.
NC

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2008, 06:01:54 AM »
NC: The engine room is still spluttering with this news  :o --- you are well within your rights to feel dudded.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2008, 08:12:23 AM »
On reflection, you do find snippets in both Behr and MacKenzie where they contrast the freedom afforded by strategic designs to the "socialism" of imposed choices found on more penal designs. Behr uses an argument somewhat like that against Crane at one point. Which is ironic because Crane was at least as right wing as Behr was.

So their political philosophies were not entirely separate from some of their design ideas. Which would argue for the inclusion of MacK's political rants.

OTOH, they do make him sound a bit like a nutcase. But sounding like a nutcase shouldn't bother any of us. ;) 

Bob
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 08:23:37 AM by BCrosby »

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2008, 08:50:14 AM »
Neil,

I have the Spirit of St Andrews ltd edition, and the Eden attribution to MacKenzie appears in it as well, in the introductory essay by Mr. Haddock. Does it appear elsewhere in the text of the trade edition?

During a very brief scan last night, rudely interrupted by my nine year old, I didn't see any text obviously omitted from the trade version. The ltd edition extras are vintage Cypress Point photos, a fold out of MacKenzie's drawing of the Old Course, his pamphlet "Hints on Greenkeeping", and a letter to Maxwell praising him as an architect. It also has a few images of pages of the original SOSA manuscript, in MacKenzie's hand.

The introduction to the Ltd edition does say, and I'm paraphrasing, that it contains the manuscript exactly as written by MacKenzie.

Ken

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2008, 04:41:27 PM »
Sad. I particularly enjoyed reading his political views. A strong defender of liberty. I wonder what he'd have to say about the editing?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2008, 12:27:29 AM »
Tony and Kelly
I can hear him rolling over in his grave as we speak.

Ken
It is not just in Ray Haddock's introduction but is in the main text as well of the trade edition, see page 10, where the reference is in brackets. Not sure what page that would be in the limited one. Please compare these two for us if you can thanks Ken.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2008, 07:12:33 AM »
These men were human with human weaknesses...there is no good reason to whitewash those weaknesses.

MacKenzie expressed strong anti-communists views according to Neil.  This is a weakness???

Kelly
Not in my opinion Sen. McCarthy. I don't recall writing anything about MacKenzie and communism. Tom D said his comments were policially incorrect. I'm not sure there has ever been a time in American history when criticizing communism was politically incorrect. The book contains his thoughts on communism I doubt that was what was ommitted.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2008, 08:21:28 AM »
I wonder if MacKenzie didn't take FDR to task. I could see some today thinking that was politically incorrect, although I wouldn't be one of them.

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Spirit of St Andrews text edited by Sleeping Bear
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2008, 08:48:53 AM »
Neil,

The Eden attribution on page 10 of the trade edition does not appear in the same place in the ltd edition, so the editor of the book must have added it there, as well as to the introduction. Interesting.

I'll try to have a look tonight to determine what political commentary may have been edited out.

Ken

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