Why aren't there any Donald Ross Golf courses on Long Island ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

There have to be an abundant number of great sites.

There was great wealth

There is great soil

There's a good number of architects who designed courses in Long Island.

So why didn't Donald Ross design one golf course on Long Island ?

Was it because he came into prominence too late ?

While that idiot-savant, TEPaul, will claim that he didn't travel in the proper social circles, neither did a number of architects who worked on Long Island.

And, Donald Ross became a household name in the architecture business.

With work in MA, CT, NJ, NY and RI, how is it that he never designed one course on Long Island ?

Was he ever considered for a commission ?

Did he ever bid or vie for a job ?

[Jed Peters]

Wasn't he more of a build and flee--sort of like RTJ Jr.--of the golden age?

When I think Long Island, getting a "generic" design like Ross was likely providing in that era doesn't fit the mold.

Also, funny you mentioned the tom paul comment--that was the first think I thought!

[mark chalfant]

Patrick

At one time he was credited for some work at  North Fork  CC,  near  Cutchogue in  eastern Suffolk county

[Eric Pevoto]

This is a GREAT question. 

With Pinehurst as a stop for the elite, hard to believe he didn't have connections.

[John Moore II]

One possible explation (I have NO proof AT ALL for this BTW) is that the clients on Long Island were not willing to hire an architect that was not going to be on site an extensive amount during construction. I have heard time and again that Ross, when designing outside of the Carolinas, was prone to have an associate survey the land and Ross himself just sign off on things. Perhaps the people building courses on Long Island did not want that type of service. But again, this is unsubstantiated hypothesis.

[TEPaul]

Why aren't there any Ross golf courses on Long Island?


Patrick:

I would think even you could answer a question like that by yourself but apparently not. The answer is obvious, you numb-skull----Ross didn't travel in the right social circles on Long Island.

[BCrosby]

Good question. It's come up before. I don't have an answer.

Based on TEP's comment above (which has something to it), you might ask the upside-down version of Pat's question.

To what extent was the popularity of the CBM/Raynor/Banks due to the social status they conferred to clubs that hired them?

The modern version of that question would be -  to what extent is the popularity of Fazio or Nicklaus due to their ability to sell lots?

Bob



 

[bill_k]

One could ask the same question about Raynor and Philadelphia. Here's a guy whose work literally spanned the continent and beyond-in addition to up and down the East coast...but nothing (at least that I have ever heard of) in the Philly area.
Even though all the Golden Age guys travelled and designed courses in far-flung locales-could it be that in an era without websites and Golfweek that they were more dependant on the connections of their patrons...and that most of the people with wealth who were developing and building courses on Long Island in that period had some connection (social or otherwise) to CB MacDonald through NGLA and/or New York City and thus most of the opportunities on LI went to MacDonald/Raynor et al.
Could the opposite be true of Philadelphia? Did Ross simply have more connections than Raynor in that city.
Was LI MacDonald/Raynor territory and Philadelphia belonged to Ross and a few others?

[BCrosby]

A related question.

Why are there no Raynor courses in Philly or Boston or DC, all less than a day's train ride from NYC?

Or am I forgetting some courses?

Bob

P.S. Bill K - Our posts crossed.

[Thomas MacWood]

This question came up before and there were a lot of guesses, but no one knew why for certain. I wondered if he had beened blackballed for some reason or blackballed himself, because he had no desire to tread on the territory of others, but I think the idiot savant may be right. A blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. I reckon Ross didn't have any patience for the BS. Then again he must have worked with many of these same people at Oyster Harbors, in Cuba, at RI, Maine and Florida. And some of these same people must have visited Pinehurst on occasion...although may be not. Maybe his boss Mr. Tufts had a problem with LI. I don't really know. In conclusion here are some possible reasons.

1) Didn't have a good relationship with movers and shakers on LI

2) He disliked the movers and shakers on LI

3) Blackballed for some reason

4) Didn't want to intrude on the architects of LI

5) Didn't want to waste time because he thought Macdonald/Raynor got all the prime jobs

6) Didn't want to be considered a second bannana to Macdonald/Raynor

7) Mr. Tufts would not permit it

8} Didn't want to compete with the ultra budget projects like NGLA, Lido and Timber Point (unlikely reason)

The other interesting point that came out of the previous discusion was the fact Travis was pretty much shut out on LI too...he lived there. One original design that I'm aware of - Garden City CC.

[bill_k]

Bob-Raynor did do some sort of addition/renovation at Dedham just outside Boston...there is an Alps and a Road but many of the other template holes are missing...unsure what his connections were up that way.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I think Raynor's only course in Pennsylvania is Fox Chapel in Pittsburgh, although once he got within about two miles of Ardmore so he probably designed Merion East too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wasn't he more of a build and flee--sort of like RTJ Jr.--of the golden age?

When I think Long Island, getting a "generic" design like Ross was likely providing in that era doesn't fit the mold.

Could you cite 10 Ross courses that have "generic" or cookie cutter designs ?

Also, funny you mentioned the tom paul comment--that was the first think I thought!

TEPaul's comment might have some merit on the East End and in pockets of Long Island, but, Long Island is a huge area, with hundreds of golf courses and the bulk of them weren't designed by the socially prominent architects we think of as CBM/SR/CB.

Ross revised Newport and designed Point Judith, which were social hubs for the elite, so I don't think lacked social connections

[Patrick_Mucci]

One possible explation (I have NO proof AT ALL for this BTW) is that the clients on Long Island were not willing to hire an architect that was not going to be on site an extensive amount during construction. I have heard time and again that Ross, when designing outside of the Carolinas, was prone to have an associate survey the land and Ross himself just sign off on things. Perhaps the people building courses on Long Island did not want that type of service. But again, this is unsubstantiated hypothesis.

JKM,

Do you think the people seeking architects were familiar with the architect's product or his modus operandi ?

I don't think they had a clue as to how his business model, design efforts and construction practices took place.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill K,

I thought Raynor was involved at Merion.

Bob Crosby,

Ditto.

CBM/SR/CB didn't have a monopoly on the courses on LI.
Their work represents a small percentage of the courses on LI

Emmett has far, far more courses in NY and I suspect far more courses on LI

[John Moore II]

One possible explation (I have NO proof AT ALL for this BTW) is that the clients on Long Island were not willing to hire an architect that was not going to be on site an extensive amount during construction. I have heard time and again that Ross, when designing outside of the Carolinas, was prone to have an associate survey the land and Ross himself just sign off on things. Perhaps the people building courses on Long Island did not want that type of service. But again, this is unsubstantiated hypothesis.

JKM,

Do you think the people seeking architects were familiar with the architect's product or his modus operandi ?

I don't think they had a clue as to how his business model, design efforts and construction practices took place.

Pat--I would beg to differ. The potential clients almost certainly would have contacted previous clients and found out how Ross worked his design efforts. As I said, I have no proof that what I say is correct, but it has far more basis than you saying the clients would not have had a clue as to how Ross ran his business. Potential clients 75 years ago would have contacted previous clients just the same as you or I would contact, say, Bandon Resort and Texas Tech if we wanted Tom Doak to design a course for us, just to know exactly what his style of building (not the actual course, but the other things, such as time on site, how he works with people, etc) is from another clients eyes, to know if that style fits what we want.

[Michael Moore]

So why didn't Donald Ross design one golf course on Long Island ?

With work in MA, CT, NJ, NY and RI, how is it that he never designed one course on Long Island ?

Donald Ross designed the North Fork Country Club in Cutchogue in 1912.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

Do you think the people seeking architects were familiar with the architect's product or his modus operandi ?

I don't think they had a clue as to how his business model, design efforts and construction practices took place.

Pat--I would beg to differ. The potential clients almost certainly would have contacted previous clients and found out how Ross worked his design efforts.

That's absurd.

Do you think a previous client would denegrate his own course ?

Do you think he would distance himself from Donald Ross by being critical of Ross's efforts or modus operandi ?

Do you think the previous client would be qualified to comment on Ross's design methods ?  His construction methods ?

I think not.
I don't think the individuals responsible for creating a new golf course understood a great deal about design and construction of golf courses in the early 20th century.

If nothing else, the Merion thread has taught us that.

As I said, I have no proof that what I say is correct,

Agreed

but it has far more basis than you saying the clients would not have had a clue as to how Ross ran his business.

NO, it doesn't.

In spite of the fact that we live in the information age I doubt you have a clue as to how Tom Doak, Jack Nicklaus, Pete Dye, C & C run their business, how they design their courses and how they get them into the ground.

Those early 20th century guys had even less of a clue.

Read "Scotland's Gift" then get back to me.
Few, if any of the people behind NGLA knew what was going on.

The same for Merion, they learned as they went and depended upon experts in the field, the Ross's, CBM's and others to design and construct the golf course.

Potential clients 75 years ago would have contacted previous clients just the same as you or I would contact, say, Bandon Resort and Texas Tech if we wanted Tom Doak to design a course for us, just to know exactly what his style of building (not the actual course, but the other things, such as time on site, how he works with people, etc) is from another clients eyes, to know if that style fits what we want.

That may be one of the most absurd comments I've heard.

It's the end product that identifies the merits of the architect's efforts, not the assessment of those involved in the development.

You're not qualified to equate the time on site to the quality of the end product and neither were those who sought Ross's services.

Does it make a difference if Doak spent 100 hours or 1,000 hours on site if the product is the same ?

Could it be that there's a relationship to time on site and diminishing returns on the results ?

Perhaps you've never heard of delegating responsibility

Do you think that the people at Bandon and Texas Tech are going to say that they have a poor product or that they didn't like Doak's work ethic, methods or time spent dealing with minutia ?

It's the END PRODUCT, or put another way, being RESULTS ORIENTED.

Just like scoring in golf, it's not how, it's how many.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So why didn't Donald Ross design one golf course on Long Island ?

With work in MA, CT, NJ, NY and RI, how is it that he never designed one course on Long Island ?

Donald Ross designed the North Fork Country Club in Cutchogue in 1912.



Not that their word is the absolute authority, but,
Cornish & Whitten don't seem to support your contention.

What proof do you have ?

[Mike Sweeney]

So why didn't Donald Ross design one golf course on Long Island ?

With work in MA, CT, NJ, NY and RI, how is it that he never designed one course on Long Island ?

Donald Ross designed the North Fork Country Club in Cutchogue in 1912.



Not that their word is the absolute authority, but,
Cornish & Whitten don't seem to support your contention.

What proof do you have ?

http://www.donaldross.org/Default.aspx?pageId=130616&tab=1&mdd=385971

I am guessing he took a boat rather than train to the North Fork of Long Island. I would not underestimate the fact that getting to Long Island from Little Compton, RI was no picnic in those days as you would have to switch trains in NYC. Besides if you spend your summers in Rhode Island, why leave when he obviously had lots of work in New England.

[John Moore II]

Pat--would you want to work with an architect who was an asshole? I wouldn't. I would make sure, if I was building a course, that the architect's personality and mine were compatible. Perhaps Ross's personality didn't work well with those on Long Island.

--Why don't you answer why there are no Ross courses on Long Island? Tell us please. Instead of saying why other people are wrong, why don't you say EXACTLY why there are no Ross courses on the island? You never do explain why you know the answer, you simply say that you know it. So, do explain.

--You may be correct, those involved in building on Long Island might not be able to deduce quality from the amount of work and style of work done by Ross, BUT, that doesn't mean that might not have done that. It is a possibility.

[Gerry B]

re the question:  did raynor work on any courses in DC area? - Gibson Island comes to mind - which I believe he worked on with CBM

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--would you want to work with an architect who was an asshole?


I wouldn't hire an architect for his personality, I'd hire him for his artistic expertise, his ability to design good to great golf courses.

Are you saying that Donald Ross was an asshole ?

Those that hired Donald Ross didn't work with him.
The same for CBM and others.
They didn't embark on collaborative projects

I wouldn't. I would make sure, if I was building a course, that the architect's personality and mine were compatible.

How would you determine that ?

And, how do you know that it's not your personality that's flawed ?

Perhaps Ross's personality didn't work well with those on Long Island.

Let's see, it's been claimed that Ross designed about 600 courses, so evidently he had a personality that was able to blend with 600+ others.

As to the personalities on Long Island, how are they different from personalities anywhere else ?

--Why don't you answer why there are no Ross courses on Long Island?

That's not my job.

Tell us please.
Instead of saying why other people are wrong, why don't you say EXACTLY why there are no Ross courses on the island? You never do explain why you know the answer, you simply say that you know it. So, do explain.


If someone asks, what's 9 times 9, and someone else answers, 53, while I might not know that the answer is 81, I would/could know that the answer isn't 53.  Ergo, I might not know the answer, but, I know your answer is incorrect.

--You may be correct, those involved in building on Long Island might not be able to deduce quality from the amount of work and style of work done by Ross, BUT, that doesn't mean that might not have done that. It is a possibility.

I don't believe it is.
"...from 1912 until his death in 1948, Ross was considered by many to be America's best-known and most active course designer.
By 1925, 3,000 men were employed annually in the construction of Ross courses"
 

[John Moore II]

Pat--you don't have a damn clue if my answer is correct or not. Hell, you don't even have a clue what the answer is. You ask questions, and anything that doesn't jive with whatever reponse you thought you'd get must be wrong. Its bullshit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--you don't have a damn clue if my answer is correct or not.


Yes, I do, and your answer is wrong.
You're the one who doesn't have a clue.

Hell, you don't even have a clue what the answer is.

That's why I asked the question.

You ask questions, and anything that doesn't jive with whatever reponse you thought you'd get must be wrong.

Not at all, but, I know when an answer is so off base that it's wrong, such as your answer.

Its bullshit.

I guess you threw temper tantrums and/or hissy fits when you didn't get your way as a child and perhaps into adulthood.

Your answer was absurd.
Next you'll be telling us that Ross failed the Rorschach tests potential clients administered to him.