Courses with holes without fairway bunkers

[Patrick_Mucci]

9 of the 21 par 4's and par 5's at Ridgewood don't have any fairway bunkering, yet, despite relatively wide fairways the tee shots are challenging.

Did AWT or other architects design courses with so many holes without fairway bunkers ?

[Bill_McBride]

Lake Course at Olympic only has one. 

[Carl Nichols]

My home course -- an Art Hills renovation -- has fairway bunkers on only four holes (all par 4's), but is a hard driving course because it's tight and very tree-lined.  One of these days I'll get around to posting pics. 

[Jeff Goldman]

The South Course at Olympia Fields has no fairway bunkers on 8 of the 14 par 4 or 5s. 18 has a bunker 30 yards from the green, or it's 9. I'm told a fun driving course for better players.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Neither course at Winged Foot is very heavy on fairway bunkering, either; but SFGC and Bethpage Black have a lot, so you can't pigeonhole Mr. Tillinghast.

[Mike_Cirba]

I haven't played there, but I don't recall many at Medinah #3.   Am I daft?

[Peter Pallotta]

Neither course at Winged Foot is very heavy on fairway bunkering, either; but SFGC and Bethpage Black have a lot, so you can't pigeonhole Mr. Tillinghast.

Tom

I have a feeling that's just about your highest compliment for an architect, i.e. that they can't be (and refuse to be) pigeonholed.

I imagine that means that they design what "fits" the place and time without pre-conceived ideas.

If that's true, what do you think led Mr. T to go light on the bunkers at Winged Foot but heavy at Bethpage or SF

Thanks
Peter

 

[JWinick]

Well, Bethpage might be a poor example as Tillinghast may not have been the true architect.

[Mike_Cirba]

Well, Bethpage might be a poor example as Tillinghast may not have been the true architect.

JWinick,

At the risk of starting another Attribution War, there is no way in hell that Joe Burbeck was the architect of Bethpage Black.   

[JWinick]

Jeff,

I don't think driving the ball is easier on the South, despite fewer fairway bunkers than the North.  As someone who has learned to be a pretty good fairway bunker player, I'm not scared of fairway bunkers.  In many cases they can keep you from being blocked out.  
 
Many of the holes without fairway bunkers on the South don't require them.   2 & 16 are blind tee shots.   A fairway bunker on 17 would make the hole easier.   8 & 10 have the creek.   9 is a long hole with a semi-blind second.   15 & 18 are the only holes I could see fairway bunkers even making sense.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I wonder how much of AWT's bunkerless courses/holes were a factor of budgets ?

Both the initial budget and the ongoing maintainance budget.

I could see him avoiding fairway bunkers at Alpine due to the subsoil.

Remember, the clubhouse at Winged Foot was built from the stones excavated from course construction.

[Jed Peters]

Yep, olympic lake has only the one fairway bunker.

I found it exceedingly interesting, as the trees/doglegs required placement of the drives on many holes and presented the "obstacles" that fairway bunkers do otherwise.

I think this would be an important consideration--or should be, when designing a golf course without the fairway bunkers to dictate placement/present obstacles.

Jed

[Adam Clayman]

 Designed by M.W. Tucker, the Pioneers golf course opened in 1932 in Lincoln Nebraska. The course features varied terrain with not a single bunker. Jeff Brauer re-did the green complexes back in the late 80's.
I'd love to see the before pics.

[BCrosby]

Behr refers here and there to Lakeside having very few bunkers.  You don't see many in the Bobby Jones instructional films. Does anyone have the lowdown?

 

[Bruce Leland]

Though not in the class of the courses being discussed, my home course Alexandria Golf Club in Alexandria MN has no fairway bunkers whatsoever.  The architect for the original 9 holes is unknown but it is rumored that Bendelow did the 9 hole addition.

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

With respect to Ridgewood, I read somewhere that Tillinghast used less fairway bunkering because there were so many trees on the property.  Also, there is a reproduction of Tillinghast's original plans for Ridgewood which had more fairways bunkers than were built.  Gil Hanse's Master Plan provided for some of these bunkers to be built, notably on 9 West, 4 Center and 8 East.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's interesting that ANGC had so few holes with fairway bunkers, probably around 9 out of 14.

Mike Policano,

I used the locker next to yours and inquired if you were around the other day.

One of the questions discussed with my host was whether the original plans called for more bunkers, or, if bunkers were constructed and subsequently removed.

It would seem that doglegs tolerate the absence of bunkers better than straight holes.

9 west is a perfect example.
A fairway bunker would detract from the play of the hole.
The same for 9 center and/or 9 east.

Of the holes without fairway bunkers most seem to be doglegs or slight doglegs.

4 Center would be another hole where a bunker would detract from the play of the hole.

It's a great golf course, one that doesn't get enough credit.

The Barclay's routing is interesting, although I think they're playing 5 Center too short as a par 4.  I like it from about 500 such that the second shot would be blind to all but the really huge tee shot.

If they did that, with what lies beyond the green and the fronting bunker, I could hear the screams from the PGA players all the way to Wayne.

P.S.  The rough is brutal, especially the rough in the shade which tends to
        remain wet.  I noticed that the rough is now irrigated wall to wall.
        I'm not sure that's favorable for member play.

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

The bunkers were probably never built.  The original plans called for Center to end on a par 3.  The missing bunkers were on that plan.  The Committee asked AWT to redo the plans so that Center ended on a par 4.  Several holes on the Center nine were changes and on the final plans, the missing bunkers were not on that plan according to some reproductions that I have seen.

I agree that 4 Center should play longer.  I almost reached the top with my drive, so I assume virtually all the pros will have a perfect view of the green with a short iron in their hands. 

The planned bunker for 4 Center was on the left side pretty far down the fairway.  Since this plays as a short par 5 for the members, I think the addition of the bunker would be a good one.

As for the rough, your comment on membership play is politely put.  I played there last Saturday.  I scored my usual but the fun was gone.  I quickly tired of watching the group in front of us looking for their golf balls.  I think in one thick path there were looking for their cart. 

As I walked off 18, the words to the song "See You in September" came to mind.  I am lucky I have other places to play.

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I was in the right center of the 4th center fairway, 164 from the green with my drive.  Had I drawn it a little more or pulled it, I probably would have been in the proposed bunker.

Remember, that green cants from high left to low right and has an enormous bunker guarding the entire left flank short of the green, so why would anyone want to put a bunker on that side of the fairway ?

It's unduely penal.

Play was very slow as group after group searched for balls in the rough, and then, couldn't extract them once they found them.

While the fairways are generous, the rough is not conducive to member play.

Years ago, the worst rough was right next to the fairway since the throw radius of the centerline irrigation system hit it.

Now, the entire rough is watered.

I like the idea of incremental difficulty.

The more off line you are, the greater the penalty

Hence, graduated rough may be the maintainance method of the future.

Enjoy your play elsewhere.

I hear that Friar's Head is getting better and better.

[Mike Policano]

The rough this year is being maintained in preparation of The Barclay's.  I am certain that next year it will return to the usual maintenance which is much more appropriate for member play. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

The rough this year is being maintained in preparation of The Barclay's.  I am certain that next year it will return to the usual maintenance which is much more appropriate for member play. 

Mike,

The only thing that would make me think otherwise is the wall to wall nature of the irrigation system.

[JR Potts]

I haven't played there, but I don't recall many at Medinah #3.   Am I daft?

Daft is a strong word....don't be so hard on yourself.

Of the Par 4s and 5s.
1 - Yes
3 - Yes
4 - No
5 - Yes
6 - Yes
7 - Yes
9 - No
10 - Yes
11 - Yes
12 - No
14 - No
15 - Yes
16 - No
18 - Yes

The best holes on the course are, ironically enough, 4 of the 5 without bunkers.

[Dave Givnish]

Desert Forest has no fairway bunkers.  There are greenside bunkers on all the holes, but only 6 are behind the green.

Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interestingly enough, in viewing the original plans of a golf course built circa 1927, I noticed that there was but one fairway bunker on the entire golf course, and, a par 3 without a bunker, and that over the last 81 years almost every hole has had fairway bunker added to it.  Today, Some remain, some were removed and some were added.

On older courses, 1910-1941, were many fairway bunkers ........ amendments ?

[Phil Benedict]

I don't believe Yale has many fairway bunkers. Maybe because the topo is so dramatic they figured they didn't need 'em.