Massachusetts 1927

[Thomas MacWood]

Here is that Ross letter, dated April 13, 1923.

Dear Mr.Tufts
With reference to my services at the Dedham Polo and Country Club referred to in the enclosed letter from Mr. Frederick P. Royce; I have had correspondence from the Committee and from Geo P. Willett about the work.

The story is this. The first nine holes they had was laid out by myself on very restricted land and shortage of money, but it worked out very well indeed. When Herbert Fowler, the would-be architect came over to America the club was better able to build a real course and instead of giving me a chance they hired him and it was published in all the Boston papers that Fowler was the world’s greatest expert. His work proved to be an absolute failure, not only at Dedham, but also on every other job where he worked. Now they want me to take up where he left off, and if I succeed in doing anything with it, Fowler, and not I, will get the credit. I have had this experience before, I have more work of my own then I can well take care of and it is much more interesting and satisfactory, and if I did the Dedham work it would mean a sacrifice on my part which I am not willing to make.

I am writing you this confidentially to give you the history of the situation.

Yours truly,
Donald J. Ross

[Thomas MacWood]

Sean
The original Wollaston was near the Norfolk Downs RR station, nine holes. There seems to have been a split in 1899, a new nine adjacent to the old one was built and another faction moved to a new course at Lexington Station.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Like Leeds, Parker was a lifelong batchelor. Neither man worked during their lifetimes - they both lived off hefty trusts. They shared an apartment for twenty odd years at the Somerset Club, a prestigious men's club on Beacon Hill. Perhaps a turn of the century Odd Couple. That situation changed before 1920, Parker was out and a younger man moved in with Leeds, Robert Barlow. Barlow was a lifelong batchelor also, and the athletic director of a Boston prep school. They were living compainions at the time of Leed's death."


Tom MacWood;

If "information" is currency on this website which fortunately or unfortunately it probably is----is there any possible relevence to the game of golf or the subject or function of golf course architecture in that rather incredible piece of information exhibited in that remark of yours above about Myopia's Herbert Leeds?

Once again, why don't you stop avoiding the requests that you provide something of substance historically on Willie Campbell and Myopia G.C or just drop your speculations and conjecture?  The only thing any reasonable mind could deduce is you just can't, and that apparently the next best thing in your odd mind is that garbage like that is the next best thing. 

[TEPaul]

By the way, MacWood, you call yourself a researcher/writer??  Is there any chance in our future that you can learn to write or spell any better than a six year old? Your posts on here are pretty shocking that way and your research is basically devolving to about the same low level.

Batchelor?!?    (no typo there because it's not once---it's twice!) 

It's not my style to say so but you really are an idiot!   

[DMoriarty]

I would think it should be obvious, but perhaps it's not.

William Flynn was the Superintendent/Greenkeeper at Merion during the years he drew those sketches in 1916, and was going to be Wilson's design partner in 1924 when he did some others.   That in itself makes the situation much, much different than anywhere else he may have drawn sketches, because those sketches other than Merion (where he was employed) were clearly drawn at courses where he worked as a golf course architect.

Tom MacWood,

How difficult would it be for Myopia to be the best course in Boston in 1894?   Wouldn't that bar be held pretty low? 

I would think it should be obvious, too.  There is no way that Flynn designed everything he ever drew.   

As for your Merion distinction, are you saying Flynn did not work as a course architect at Merion?   Be careful, Wayne might demand pistols at dawn for such blasphemy.    As for the Wilson partnership thing, I don't get the logic.  But set that aside.  What about drawings done after Wilson died?  Do these drawings reflect only Flynn's work?  No way.

[TEPaul]

But let's get back on track on this thread Tom MacWood.

The QUESTION IS are you going to show me or any of us on here what you have on Willie Campbell and Myopia's golf course?





Uh, huh, I didn't think so! 

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Spelling is not my strong suit....and quite obviously my research abilities are not quite up to yours. That being said, I'm not sure why you continue to ask for my help. It seems to me you have a complete understanding of Myopia's history - lets just leave it that.

Garbage? I'm tyring figure out what made Leeds tick. This is not one of your make believe Devie Emmet grade school funnies that have no basis in reality. What do you make of Leeds living arangements? Was it common at the turn of the century for independently wealthy batchelor's to share an apartment...for two decades?

[Thomas MacWood]

But let's get back on track on this thread Tom MacWood.

The QUESTION IS are you going to show me or any of us on here what you have on Willie Campbell and Myopia's golf course?





Uh, huh, I didn't think so! 

TE
Its not that difficult to cross check the facts presented in your club history. Any idiot with access to the Boston Globe archives will soon discover reports that Campbell originally designed Myopia's first nine in 1894. They will also be able to compare that original nine to the current eighteen, and learn how the course evolved. They will also learn that Campbell became the pro at Myopia in 1896, and that the course was turned into 18 holes late in 1898. They will also learn Leeds made several trips abroad after 1902....strange the scrapbook was not aware of this. They will also learn Campbell and Leeds were closely associated at Brookline prior to both their moves to Myopia in 1896. And that Robert White was 19 years old in 1897 when he supposedly became the pro at Myopia. Like I said if I was you I would scrap the book and start from scratch.

[TEPaul]

Despite your protestations about the inaccuracy of the recorded architectural history of Myopia you just can't supply a thing solid or factual about Myopia and Willie Campbell can you Tom MacWood?  

You've said it over and over with certainty so you don't really expect me to stop asking you to come up with SOMETHING solid and factual, do you?

The various entities that should come first in getting Myopia's history right are Myopia and the USGA Architecture Archive. If there is anything solid that adds or subtracts from Myopia's history it should be considered but something has to be supplied that's solid first.

Unless, of course, you actually think YOU can just say these kinds of things and they should be taken seriously by ANYONE?

As self-centered and arrogant as you are about some of things you say on here, I'm pretty certain EVEN YOU don't think anyone will fall for that.

AGAIN, show me something solid about Willie Campbell and Myopia and I can pretty much guarantee you those entities will at least consider it.  

[TEPaul]

"Any idiot with access to the Boston Globe archives will soon discover reports that Campbell originally designed Myopia's first nine in 1894. They will also be able to compare that original nine to the current eighteen, and learn how the course evolved. They will also learn that Campbell became the pro at Myopia in 1896."


Then show them to me, like right now, and I will take them to Myopia this week and ask them about those reports and why Myopia's history doesn't reflect them or diverges from them!

You depend on newspaper articles which are inherently indirect and I depend on the actual contemporaneous accounts of the clubs about their histories. You seem to think that most all these clubs lie about their histories even contemporaneously.

Frankly, that's about the dumbest kind of historical analysis imaginable but what can I say, obviously that's just you, Tom MacWalnut. You are the worst and most pernicioius "outsider looking in", in my book. Since you can't actually access actual club material, I guess the next best thing in your mind is to challenge it in all and every case.

I guess that's kind of an interesting thought for the likes of you and Moriarty---only problem is, the direct facts from the clubs will likely shoot your speculations and conjecture down each and every time and that's exactly what will and has happened with your speculations on courses like Myopia and Merion East! 

[Thomas MacWood]

Despite your protestations about the inaccuracy of the recorded architectural history of Myopia you just can't supply a thing solid or factual about Myopia and Willie Campbell can you Tom MacWood?  

TE
If you don't consider newspaper and magazine reports solid or factual in comparison to a supposed scrapbook which apparently consisted of newspaper and magazine clippings, a supposed scrapbook that has been lost for 25 years or more, and no one living has ever seen, than you are right I have nothing.

[Thomas MacWood]

"Any idiot with access to the Boston Globe archives will soon discover reports that Campbell originally designed Myopia's first nine in 1894. They will also be able to compare that original nine to the current eighteen, and learn how the course evolved."


Then show them to me, like right now and I will take them to Myopia this week and ask them about those reports and why Myopia's history doesn't reflect them!

TE
If Myopia is interested they can contact me directly.

[TEPaul]

"TE
If you don't consider newspaper and magazine reports solid or factual in comparison to a supposed scrapbook which apparently consisted of newspaper and magazine clippings, a supposed scrapbook that has been lost for 25 years or more, and no one living has ever seen, than you are right I have nothing."


The so-called scrapbook was Leed's own record of his years at Myopia and what he did there architecturally. It was not a book of newspaper articles, you idiot!  There are a ton of people who knew it and say it. It was part of the Myopia record and archive. I don't know how the hell old you are but for some of us 1975 was definitely not before we were born.

[Thomas MacWood]

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1922 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Hatch/Ross

[Thomas MacWood]

Here is that Ross letter, dated April 13, 1923.

Dear Mr.Tufts
With reference to my services at the Dedham Polo and Country Club referred to in the enclosed letter from Mr. Frederick P. Royce; I have had correspondence from the Committee and from Geo P. Willett about the work.

The story is this. The first nine holes they had was laid out by myself on very restricted land and shortage of money, but it worked out very well indeed. When Herbert Fowler, the would-be architect came over to America the club was better able to build a real course and instead of giving me a chance they hired him and it was published in all the Boston papers that Fowler was the world’s greatest expert. His work proved to be an absolute failure, not only at Dedham, but also on every other job where he worked. Now they want me to take up where he left off, and if I succeed in doing anything with it, Fowler, and not I, will get the credit. I have had this experience before, I have more work of my own then I can well take care of and it is much more interesting and satisfactory, and if I did the Dedham work it would mean a sacrifice on my part which I am not willing to make.

I am writing you this confidentially to give you the history of the situation.

Yours truly,
Donald J. Ross

[TEPaul]

""TE
If you don't consider newspaper and magazine reports solid or factual in comparison to a supposed scrapbook which apparently consisted of newspaper and magazine clippings, a supposed scrapbook that has been lost for 25 years or more, and no one living has ever seen, than you are right I have nothing."



Tom MacWood;

The Leed's "scrapbook" was his own personal record of his years to do with Myopia. There are a ton of people who saw it.


"TE
If Myopia is interested they can contact me directly."



I know it's probably maddening to you but neither Myopia or any of these clubs like Merion are going to get in touch with you. And It's probably even more maddening that you will have to go through me. You and Moriarty can complain about that on here or anywhere else you want to but that's pretty much the way it is and will be.

So, if you have ANYTHING solid on Willie Campbell, put it on here where both I and the rest of the contributors can see it. Failing that you really ought to just stay out of trying to analyze the histories of these clubs and courses you, admittedly, don't know much about.


And let's not forget, the world of golf architectural interested parties and analysts are still waiting for you or Moriarty to produce something solid from Macdonald or Barker on Merion East to back up your heretofore speculations and conjectures! 

We've been waiting and waiting and waiting! Where is this information that you led us to expect? Are any of us ever going to get it from either of you?

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I'm sure the members of Myopia will be thrilled to learn that you now call the shots for them.

[TEPaul]

"TE
I'm sure the members of Myopia will be thrilled to learn that you now call the shots for them."

Tom MacWood:

I surely don't call the shots for Myopia. No one calls the shots for Myopia except Myopia. But if you entertain some idea that Myopia is going to get in touch with you and deal with you because you're claiming on this website that Willie Campbell designed their first course, then I'll guarantee you you're dreaming.

You don't have any credibility anyway, in my opinion, or in theirs or in Merion's or at any clubs that you may be becoming interested in   but if you even want to begin to generate some credibility, even on here, you pretty much need to produce the evidence you say you have that Willie Campbell designed Myopia's first nine holes. This is not just some subject in a vaccuum----eg Myopia's history says otherwise.

By the way, have you ever even read Myopia's OWN history? 

Failing that you can pretty much forget about it.

[DMoriarty]

I know it's probably maddening to you but neither Myopia or any of these clubs like Merion are going to get in touch with you. And It's probably even more maddening that you will have to go through me. You and Moriarty can complain about that on here or anywhere else you want to but that's pretty much the way it is and will be.

Wow TEPaul, you are even more important than I thought!  You  speak for the USGA, Merion, and Myopia.  Any others?

I've noticed a pattern to your posts . . .

  "Insult. Insult. Insult. Insult.  You better give me your research, Macwood.  Insult. Insult. Insult.  Come on, give me your research.  I speak for Merion.  I speak for Myopia, I speak for the USGA.  I am the MASTER of POMPOUSITY!  Insult. Insult. Insult.  I demand it NOW.  I have an appointment tomorrow with these people and I want to pretend like I know what I am talking about!!   Insult. Insult. Insult. Insult. . . ."   

Your boorish behavior might make the bluest of blue bloods blush. 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Massachusetts Open sites

Year     Champion     Site
1905    Donald Ross    Vesper CC
1906    Alex Ross    Wollaston GC
1907    Alex Ross    Brae Burn CC
1908    Alex Ross    The Country Club
1909    Alex Ross    Woodland GC
1910    Alex Ross    Essex CC
1911    Donald Ross    The Country Club
1912    Alex Ross    Oakley CC
1913    Tom McNamara    Brae Burn CC
1914    Mike Brady    Belmont Spring CC
1915    Walter Hagen    The Country Club
1916    Mike Brady    Brae Burn CC
1917    Event Not Held
1918    Event Not Held
1919    Jesse P. Guilford *    Worcester CC
1920    George L. Bowden    Commonwealth CC
1921    Louis Tellier    Essex CC
1922    George Kerrigan    CC of Springfield
1923    Mike Brady    Tedesco CC
1924    Willie Ogg    Kernwood CC
1925    Tom Lally    Charles River CC
1926    Donald Vinton    Worcester CC
1927    Johnny Farrell    Sandy Burr CC
1928    Leo Diegel    Wollaston GC
1929    Jesse P. Guilford *    Vesper CC
1930    Joe Turnesa    Brae Burn CC
1931    Wiffy Cox    Worcester CC
1932    Francis Ouimet *    Oyster Harbors Club
1933    Ted Turner    Belmont Spring CC
1934    Roy Bronsdon    Oyster Harbors Club
1935    Gene Sarazen    Oak Hill CC
1936    Harold McSpaden    Oak Hill CC
1937    Harold McSpaden    Oyster Harbors Club
1938    Harold McSpaden    Oyster Harbors Club
1939    Byron Nelson    Worcester CC
1940    Horton Smith    Oyster Harbors Club
1941    Harold McSpaden    Oyster Harbors Club
1942    Ben Loving **    Oyster Harbors Club
1943    Event Not Held
1944    Event Not Held
1945    Event Not Held
1946    Ellsworth Vines    Longmeadow CC
1947    Gene Kunes **    Belmont CC
1948    Jerry Gianferante    Oak Hill CC
1949    Edward Burke    Wachusett CC
1950    John Thoren **    South Shore CC
1951    Julius Boros    Salem CC
1952    Everett Stuart **    Charles River CC
1953    Jim Browning    Worcester CC
1954    Don Hoenig *    Wachusett CC
1955    John Thoren    Coonamesset Club
1956    Ed Oliver    Coonamesset Club
1957    Bob Crowley    Coonamesset Club
1958    Bob Toski    Hyannisport Club
1959    George Kinsman **    Hyannisport Club
1960    Bill Ezinicki    CC of Pittsfield
1961    Don Hoenig **    Tedesco CC
1962    Bob Crowley    Belmont CC

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Massachusetts Amateur Sites

1903     Arthur G. Lockwood     Myopia Hunt Club
1904    Andrew Carnegie, II    Essex CC
1905    Arthur G. Lockwood    The Country Club
1906    Arthur G. Lockwood    Brae Burn CC
1907    John G. Anderson    Woodland GC
1908    T.R. Fuller    Wollaston GC
1909    Percival Gilbert    Oakley CC
1910    H.W. Stucklen    Brae Burn CC
1911    John G. Anderson    Essex CC
1912    Heinie Schmidt    Brae Burn CC
1913    Francis D. Ouimet    Wollaston GC
1914    Francis D. Ouimet    Brae Burn CC
1915    Francis D. Ouimet    Woodland GC
1916    Jesse P. Guilford    Wollaston GC
1917    Event Not Held
1918    Event Not Held
1919    Francis D. Ouimet    Winchester CC
1920    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    The Country Club
1921    Jesse P. Guilford    Worcester CC
1922    Francis D. Ouimet    Kernwood CC
1923    Karl E. Mosser    Brae Burn CC
1924    Jesse P. Guilford    Woodland GC
1925    Francis D. Ouimet    The Country Club
1926    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Brae Burn CC
1927    Edward E. Lowery    Charles River CC
1928    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Essex CC
1929    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Belmont Spring CC
1930    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Salem CC
1931    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Winchester CC
1932    Edward P. Kirouac    Kernwood CC
1933    Joseph P. Lynch    Worcester CC
1934    William O. Blaney    The Country Club
1935    Edward S. Stimpson    Brae Burn CC
1936    Clark Hodder    Charles River CC
1937    Dave Whiteside    Winchester CC
1938    Frederick J. Wright, Jr.    Essex CC
1939    Ted Adams    Tedesco CC
1940    Ted Bishop    Salem CC
1941    Leo Martin    Longmeadow CC
1942    Event Not Held
1943    Event Not Held
1944    Event Not Held
1945    Event Not Held

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Here's an interesting tidbit.

In 1928, Cape Cod Country Club opened as a 9-holer called Coonamesset, because of the nearby inn of the same name. Designed by Devereaux Emmet and Al Tull, who have created Wee Burn Country Club in Connecticut, as well as the old Congressional Country Club outside D.C., the course is rumored to have been redesigned and expanded to 18 holes the following year by noted architect Donald Ross; however, head pro Chuck Holmes has looked everywhere and cannot find any proof that Ross ever set foot on these fairways.

"It would be nice to say this is Donald Ross course," he admits. "but we have no real evidence."

Meanwhile, Coonamesset underwent several name changes: it then spent two years as the Treadway Inn during the 1950's before it became Clausen's in the 1960's. In 1977, the course became the Cape Cod Country Club.

[Thomas MacWood]

The courses that standout to me, missing from the 1927 list, Wollaston, Woodland, Kernwood, Oak Hill, CC of Springfield and Sandy Burr.

What are the opinions about the strength of these courses?

Are there courses currently on the '27 list that should be removed?

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

There's no point at all responding to you anymore about architecture. As for your research on some of these east coast courses you keep it. Who wants it? It's no good. It also seems like most of your posts these days are about people being insulting. That's not much of a contribution to this website, is it? Perhaps you should take a look at yourself as far as being insulting. 

Tom MacWood:

If you have anything at all solid on Willie Campbell designing Myopia in 1894 or whatever just put what you have on here and I'll definitely take it to Myopia this week and ask them to compare it to whatever they have in their records and to consider it. Do you have a problem with that?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

                                                                FIGHT!