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TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2008, 10:28:38 PM »
"Reply #44 is best ignored."

Wayne:

Agreed, and the poster too, although his point about Flynn's early Merion drawings is not a bad one, but certainly not with Kittansett. Basically he's become a waste of time on this website on a number of subjects. He should probably just stick to California architectural subjects that he may know something about. 

Actually, having just read them posts #48 and #49 are best ignored too.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 10:33:45 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2008, 11:27:44 PM »
Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1922 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Ross
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 06:01:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2008, 11:28:23 PM »
Reply #44 is best ignored.  This guy poses as an expert on William Flynn and would have everyone grant him authority on the subject.  These dilettantes would be laughable except that they actually believe what they say.


A true authority simply answers the questions the best they can, and doesn't refer to himself as an expert or hide behind a self-proclaimed veil.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:39:35 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2008, 11:39:59 PM »
"Could you explain what you mean by the first course iteration and the 1900-1903 iteration? Did Leeds change the routing he inherited?"


Tom MacWood:

Sure; golf began at Myopia (a fox hunt club) in 1894 on a rudimentary course. Who laid it out is not exactly known according to the Myopia history book. Originally the course may've been only 5-6 holes that essentially included #2, #8, #9, from #10 tee to #11 green (the Alps), #12 and perhaps something like #13. There were no holes on the ridge at that time.

Leed's joined the club in 1896 (from TCC). He was appointed to the green committee and in app 1897 he improved the first existing course to nine holes known as the "long nine" on which the 1898 US Open was held. In 1998-1899 Leeds began to expand the course to 18 holes by adding the Dr. S. A. Hopkins property (51 acres that includes #4, #5, #6 and #7 and the S. Dacre Bush property that includes #10 and #11). In 1903 Leeds apparently went abroad to study English architecture (probably the the early courses of the so-called "Heathland" architects.

The first hole was added (to be next to the clubhouse) and the holes on the ridge as well as the holes on the other side of the clubhouse (#17 and #18).

Leeds would continue to work on improving the course, particularly adding bunkers. He retired as "Captain of the Green" in 1918 and he died in 1930.

Leeds' design modus operandi in his years of creating and improving the course was to ask the good players who came through Myopia their opinions but a professional architect was never used. A rather amazing list of prominent players and prominent golf analysts from the USA and abroad passed through Myopia in these years. Myopia was the evolutionary creation of "amateur/sportsman" Herbert Carey Leeds. Throughout most of his career in golf and architecture Leeds was an excellent player.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:50:29 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2008, 11:41:28 PM »
"Sure; golf began at Myopia (a fox hunt club) in 1894 on a rudimentary course. Who laid it out is not exactly known according to the Myopia history book. Originally the course may've been only 5-6 holes"

TE
What is your source...have you done any independent research?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 11:46:31 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2008, 12:14:20 AM »
"TE
What is your source...have you done any independent research?"


My sources have been Myopia, its archives, its history book written in 1975 by Edward Weeks for the centennial of the Myopia Hunt Club, and including the members and families of the club throughout the years. All of this is enhanced and supplemented by contemporaneous books, newspaper and magazine articles, the USGA Museum/Library (although I'm the USGA Architecture Archive contact for Myopia), as well as old info on Myopia contained in the archives of other clubs such as Pine Valley, Newport G.C et al. Some of the best sources of info on Myopia were "middle years" experts on the club such as Dennie Boardman and the rather amazing Bobby Knowles, both of whom were old friends of my father. Another great research source for me on Myopia is actually having been there over the last fifty years. One of the jewels of subjective info in the history book is a wonderful letter from Bob Jones to the "captain of the green", George Batchelder, in 1939 reminiscing about his years at Myopia when at Harvard in the early 1920s and how he felt about the course and what made its architecture special to him.  The actual architectural evolution tracking of the course is most interesting and amazingly not that hard to do for an American course of that age.

I'm going back up there this week. If you have any particular information requests, now is the time. Herbert Leeds kept a scrapbook/notebook/diary? of his years working on the golf course. Sadly, even if there are people still around today who remember it, it seems to be lost, but Edward Weeks used it in his 1975 history book.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 12:37:04 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2008, 06:14:14 AM »

Sure; golf began at Myopia (a fox hunt club) in 1894 on a rudimentary course. Who laid it out is not exactly known according to the Myopia history book. Originally the course may've been only 5-6 holes that essentially included #2, #8, #9, from #10 tee to #11 green (the Alps), #12 and perhaps something like #13.


TE
Willie Campbell designed the first nine in 1894. It was considered the best course in Boston and the surrounding area. Brookline was #2; also designed by Willie. Both clubs were fortunate to have the services of such an accomplished architect. The 1898 US Open was held at Myopia on the original nine. At the time Myopia was said to be the longest course in the nation.

Who was the pro at Myopia in 1898 (when the second nine was being formulated)?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 06:41:58 AM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2008, 07:33:08 AM »

In 1903 Leeds apparently went abroad to study English architecture (probably the the early courses of the so-called "Heathland" architects.

The first hole was added (to be next to the clubhouse) and the holes on the ridge as well as the holes on the other side of the clubhouse (#17 and #18).


TE
Are you certain Leeds went abroad in 1903?

What year was the 1st hole added...as well the holes on the ridge and 17th and 18th?

From all the info at your disposal have you been able to formulate personal profile of Leeds?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 08:14:11 AM by Tom MacWood »

BCrosby

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2008, 07:52:40 AM »
Tom MacW -

You might consider adding Concord CC to your list. One nine was by Ross (1915?). Not sure who did the other nine. I recall it being well thought of in your time frame.

Bob

BCrosby

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2008, 07:56:38 AM »
TEP -

Someone needs to do a piece on Leeds at Myopia and at Palmetto. Both were the first good courses in their respective regions. For that reason alone (there are others) I would guess that Leeds' influence on gca is under appreciated.

Bob

BCrosby

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2008, 08:21:01 AM »
I wish I knew more about Dedham. First because it had an all star line up of architects - Ross, Fowler, Raynor. Second because that was Joshua Crane's home club.

I believe Dedham, like Myopia and TCC started life as a polo club.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2008, 09:14:40 AM »
I would think it should be obvious, but perhaps it's not.

William Flynn was the Superintendent/Greenkeeper at Merion during the years he drew those sketches in 1916, and was going to be Wilson's design partner in 1924 when he did some others.   That in itself makes the situation much, much different than anywhere else he may have drawn sketches, because those sketches other than Merion (where he was employed) were clearly drawn at courses where he worked as a golf course architect.

Tom MacWood,

How difficult would it be for Myopia to be the best course in Boston in 1894?   Wouldn't that bar be held pretty low? 

Brad Tufts

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2008, 09:52:38 AM »
Placeholder for more Tedesco CC info.  I need to get my materials out when I have a few mins for a coherent response.

Also, I would think Myopia was the best (most complex and challenging?) course in the Boston area at least until the 1913 US Open, when TCC hit national consciousness.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2008, 10:21:53 AM »

Tom MacWood,

How difficult would it be for Myopia to be the best course in Boston in 1894?   Wouldn't that bar be held pretty low? 

Mike
In relative terms I would say no, IMO it was a significant accomplishment. However, depending on your perspective, I suppose one could make the case the bar was set low, for example if you chose to compare it to future eras.

Boston was the epicenter for golf in America in the 1890s. Myopia was considered the best course in Boston in 1894, 1895, 1896, 1897, 1898 and after, when it was expanded to 18. In 1898 there were 24 golf courses in Greater Boston. The top five courses were Myopia, Brookline, Essex County, Oakley and Wollaston - all designed by Willie Campbell.

TE claimed Myopia was a rudimentary golf course in 1894 - that it may have only been 5 or 6 holes. His characterization is off the mark.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:38:03 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2008, 12:37:32 PM »

Tom MacWood:

In my opinion, Myopia and Leeds are most significant in the history and evolution of golf and architecture in America. I’ve said that many times on here. Macdonald, and others, seemed to confirm that---eg Macdonald claimed Myopia was one of only three good courses in America that predated NGLA.

For those reasons, Myopia is slated to figure pretty prominently in the new USGA Architecture Archives and Leeds probably will too.

Most of my sources of information on the architectural history of Myopia G.C. is from Myopia, their records and archives, and including the club’s centennial history book which appears to reflect the club’s archives and records (financial and otherwise) and apparently including Leeds’ own record book of what he did with the course during his years there that began in 1896. That Leeds book is apparently now lost.

Again, for these reasons, I’m very interested in knowing anything that’s significant on the architectural history of Myopia. The club records, which appear from the beginning to be pretty specific do not mention that the original holes were laid out by Willie Campbell. The club records do mention that club members R.M. Appleton, “Squire” Merrill and A.P. Gardner laid out nine greens and tees and had the rudimentary course completed between March and June, 1924. This they did for a cost of $50.00. The club has a fair idea where those holes may’ve been and what they looked like including their lengths (including a few holes on club member, Dr. S.A. Hopkins contiguous property which is where the second half of hole #4, and holes #5, #6 and #7 are today).

The Myopia history points out that the beginning of golf at Myopia Hunt Club would probably not have happened when it did had it not been for the support for golf of R.M. Appleton who also was the Master of the Hunt. Golf at Myopia in the early days was most definitely looked down upon by the inveterate horse, hunt and polo interests of Myopia Hunt Club.

Therefore, if you have some information neither I nor the club knows about regarding their early architectural history I’m quite sure we all would just love to know about it. But I’m also sure neither I nor Myopia or the USGA Museum/Library is interested in outright speculation and conjecture (this new “Tautology” method ;) ) regarding its architectural history any more than Merion is interested in the recent highly speculative and conjectural musings of you and David Moriarty on Merion’s early architectural history.

But if you have something really solid historically, why don’t you provide it now? As I said I’m going up there this week for four days.


“TE
Willie Campbell designed the first nine in 1894. It was considered the best course in Boston and the surrounding area. Brookline was #2; also designed by Willie. Both clubs were fortunate to have the services of such an accomplished architect. The 1898 US Open was held at Myopia on the original nine. At the time Myopia was said to be the longest course in the nation.”


If you have some good documentation or even some good evidence that Willie Campbell designed the original nine holes, then let’s see it because the club’s records and history do not reflect that. The so-called “Long Nine” was basically the work of Herbert Leeds and whatever he found there when he became a member in 1896 (he’d previously belonged to TCC). Leeds probably began working on the course as early as 1896 (the Long Nine) and following the 1898 US Open (held on the Long Nine), Leeds set about expanding the course to eighteen holes.


“Who was the pro at Myopia in 1898 (when the second nine was being formulated)?”

Robert White was the professional/greenkeeper at Myopia for a time and apparently left in 1897. He was followed as the professional/greenkeeper by John Jones who was there in that capacity for many years.


“TE
Are you certain Leeds went abroad in 1903?”

Leeds apparently went abroad in 1902 to look at golf courses in England. The history book said that trip convinced him his Myopia was solid architecturally.

“What year was the 1st hole added...as well the holes on the ridge and 17th and 18th?”

Those holes were added following the US Open in 1898. The entire eighteen that we basically know today were in play for the 1901 U.S. Open. The 1905 and 1908 U.S. Opens were also held at Myopia.


“From all the info at your disposal have you been able to formulate personal profile of Leeds?”


I have. He was a most interesting guy----quite unusual. He was some kind of athlete, that’s for sure---eg a star baseball player and football player at Harvard (the first man to score on Yale) and an America Cup yachtsman. He was also pretty damn stern in numerous ways; He never married and was apparently a true misogynist. He had a very prominent birthmark on one side of his face he was very sensitive about (probably a “Port Wine” condition). He was considered to be one of the best golfers around in those early days (club champion at TCC and Myopia in the beginning and before and around the turn of the century. He was the low amateur in the 1898 US Open). He was the first vice president of the Massachusetts Golf Association that he apparently began in conjunction with Herbert WIndeler of TCC who was soon to be the President of the USGA.




“TE claimed Myopia was a rudimentary golf course in 1894 - that it may have only been 5 or 6 holes. His characterization is off the mark.”


The first layout was apparently nine holes even though the club is not totally sure where all of them were at that time (1894), primarily the holes that were apparently on Dr. S.A. Hopkins’ land. They are sure that some iteration of holes #2, #8, #9, a different iteration of #10 (The "Alps" from the present #10th tee over the hill to the present 11th green), a shorter #12 and a slightly different iteration of the 13th over a pond that is now hidden in the woods to the left of present #13.

Again, if you have something to add or subtract from this history and these records of very early golf and architecture at Myopia that is not highly speculative and conjectural, I’m certain the club and some other entities would love to know about it. It may be pretty important to very early Massachusetts golf and architecture.

So, try not to just beat around the bush as you usually do by just claiming something is factual when  not even close to that---eg merely highly speculative and conjectural on your part. If you have some real proof of Willie Campbell’s architectural involvement with Myopia why don't you just show it to us all right now? Is there any reason for you to just continue your litany of endless questions that you seem to pass off as some kind of evidence of something you think you have? If you have something solid on Campbell and Myopia in 1894, again, let's see it and it will definitely be considered at least.

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2008, 01:18:58 PM »
I wish I knew more about Dedham. First because it had an all star line up of architects - Ross, Fowler, Raynor. Second because that was Joshua Crane's home club.

I believe Dedham, like Myopia and TCC started life as a polo club."


Bob:

It did. Dedham began as a hunt and polo club like Myopia. One of their first Scottish immigrant professional/greenskeepers was Willie Ogg from Carnoustie who was at Dedham from 1914 until 1921. The course was reputedly originally designed by Alex Findlay, one of the early pied pipers of American GCA.


Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2008, 03:45:22 PM »
TE
Your club history leaves a lot to be desired. Many of the facts are wrong; they don't match comtemporaneous reports. For example the course was expanded to 18 immediately after the 1898 US Open. I have my doubts about the validity of this scrapbook or the fact that even existed.

Does the history even mention Campbell at all? If it doesn't I know the scrapbook story is false.

Bob
I agree with you about Dedham ~ they have an interesting lineage. Its even more interesting than it appears on the surface. There was a letter floating around on GCA a couple of years ago from Ross to Tufts in which he explained his issue with Dedham (evidently Tufts had inquired with Ross what his problem was with the club). He explains in the letter that he laid out their original nine-hole course, that was all the room they had at the time, but when they secured more land later on instead of going back to him they instead went to Fowler, who Ross said was basically masquerading as a golf architect. When they asked Ross if he would fix Fowler's foul-ups he told them to screw themselves, more or less. My guess is that is where Raynor came in.

PS: It appears TE got his mistaken info from C&W. Old habits die hard.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2008, 04:07:47 PM »
Tom M.
Did Campbell design both iterations of Wollaston, i.e. the first course at Norfolk Downs and the later one at Montclair? I believe Wollaston should be included nevertheless, as it remained influential (perhaps because of Geo. Wright's presence) up to and past 1927. The same could probably be said for Woodland (exchanging Ouimet for Wright).

Its never quite clear that these lists are identifying the best courses so much as they seem to identify nearly every course existing at the time or at least those of note.

Based on this list I would also include Oakley CC.

Are you certain Oyster Harbors was open for play by 1927?

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2008, 04:15:06 PM »
"TE
Your club history leaves a lot to be desired. Many of the facts are wrong; they don't match comtemporaneous reports. For example the course was expanded to 18 immediately after the 1898 US Open. I have my doubts about the validity of this scrapbook or the fact that even existed."


Tom MacWood:

1. What facts are wrong?

2. What contemporaneous reports? Why don't you show me what they are instead of just mentioning "reports". You sound like Sen Joseph McCarthy---"I have a list right here in my pocket"-- for God's Sake!

3. You just said the course was expanded to 18 hole immediately after the 1898 Open. What did I just say in my last post? Can you actually read?

4. Edward Weeks had Leeds scrapbook when he wrote his centennial history of the club and one of the historians of the club (who I'm playing in the member/guest this week remembers the Leeds scrapbook so your doubts are completely meaningless.

5. How about producing something about Willie Campbell and Myopia except only "referred to" items which are apparently speculation and conjecture on your part.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2008, 05:07:23 PM »
If you don't add Whitinsville to the list in two seconds there's going to be a problem.

It has 9 HOLES or NINE HOLES or IX NINE HOLES


Ross, 1925


Anthony


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2008, 05:14:40 PM »
I could be wrong but I think Dedham has discovered Fowler was never there. Willie Ogg the superintendent made substantial changes to the Raynor version of the course.


Anthony



Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2008, 06:04:16 PM »

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1922 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Hatch/Ross

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2008, 06:16:05 PM »
Anthony
Fowler wrote that he designed Dedham in County Life, and Ross certainly doesn't mince any words that he screwed it up. When I get home I'll see if I can transcribe his letter, its very entertaining.

TE
There are too many errors to even go into here.  If I was you I'd scrap that book and start over. Leeds was a very interesting gentleman. How much do you know about Leeds male companion James Parker? One of thse days I'd like to write something about early Boston golf history....off the top of my head I can think of two inviduals who have been largley ignored who deserve a lot more credit - Willie Campbell and G Herbert Windeler.

Sean
I'm not sure which site for Wollaston. I'll see if I can find the info later. I'm not sure if its the same club or not but I want to say it was in Quincy, does that sound right?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 06:19:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2008, 06:41:20 PM »
TE
There are too many errors to even go into here."

Tom MacWood:

You've come up with just about every poor excuse imaginable in your refusal to ever back up your constant speculation and conjecture with anything solid but that one there has to be weakest and worst excuse yet.



"If I was you I'd scrap that book and start over."

Thank God you're not me then. I think I'll stick with Myopia's history from those who were there and were responsible for it. You can stick to your indirect and inaccurate newspaper articles or whatever you have, assuming you have anything at all, which I frankly doubt since you really do seem to be incapable of coming up with anything remotely solid or convincing about a number of the courses you say you've recently become interested in. ;)

I think all you have is total speculation and conjecture which ought to be hereinafter referred to as "The Spaghetti Against the Wall To See If It Will Stick" method of golf architecture analysis.


"Leeds was a very interesting gentleman."


Yes he was; a pretty unusual guy. There were a number of pretty odd people in the history of golf architecture who did some pretty amazing things.

 
"How much do you know about Leeds male companion James Parker?"


Not much but why don't you write an essay for some gay website explaining James Parker should be given more credit for influencing Leeds and Myopia's design at night after Willie Campbell went home to bed? That might be the reason Myopia ended up with so many bunkers, don't you think? Maybe you could speculate that Parker was the guy whose architecture H.H. Barker really wanted to top when Barker routed and designed Merion East in a single day.  ::)


How does it feel to get to the point where practically noone is willing to believe anything you say? Along about now you should probably know. At this point it's getting pretty hard to figure out whose architectural analyses are more ridiculous, you or that trainee of yours from the Left Coast.  :P
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 06:54:47 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2008, 08:32:17 PM »
TE
I'm pretty certain James Parker had nothing to do with Myopia's design.

Like Leeds, Parker was a lifelong batchelor. Neither man worked during their lifetimes - they both lived off hefty trusts. They shared an apartment for twenty odd years at the Somerset Club, a prestigious men's club on Beacon Hill. Perhaps a turn of the century Odd Couple. That situation changed before 1920, Parker was out and a younger man moved in with Leeds, Robert Barlow. Barlow was a lifelong batchelor also, and the athletic director of a Boston prep school. They were living compainions at the time of Leed's death.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 09:22:33 PM by Tom MacWood »

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