[Thomas MacWood]

What were the best courses in Massachusetts in 1927?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

For your research you should pick up and read "A Commonwealth of Golfers (A Centennial Tribute to the Game and Its Players---The Massachusetts Golf Association 1903-2003)" published in 2003 by Sheehan and Carroll).  For your research you should try to get beyond just depending on C&W and do some other reading.

[PCCraig]

#1) TCC Brookline
#2) Essex CC
#3) Salem
#4) Charles River
#5) Myopia

Ones that I can think of that I have played.

[Thomas MacWood]

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, ? A.Campbell, 1913 Windeler

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills Country Club - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Strong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - ? Ross, ? Raynor

[SPDB]

Trying to be limited to the very best,

Vesper - 1895 Findlay, 1919 Ross
Belmont Spring - 1918 Ross
Brae Burn - 1912 Ross
Winchester - 1902, 1916 Ross

[SPDB]

If you are going to include predecessors at Essex County (which I am not sure is appropriate), you should definitely include Bendelow.

[Thomas MacWood]

When was Bendelow involved at Essex County?

[SPDB]

My bad, was referring to Essex County in NJ. Carry on.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Others for consideration

   Oyster Harbors - Ross 1927 (great set of greens, some say the best in the state)

               Berkshire Hills Country Club - Tillinghast '26 only one he designed in Mass.

       Eastward Ho! - Fowler 1922 (I don't love it as much as others, but very good)

Sankaty Head H. Emerson Strong 1921 (very cool)

                                        Longmeadow CC 1921 Ross (prior to Tillinghast removing bunkers)

                        Dedham Country and Polo (Ross, Raynor) What's left is great.

[higkgins]

Worthy of mention here:

The Orchards -- 1922 Ross (original 9, 2nd 9 -- 1931)

[Ken Fry]

Would Stiles and Van Kleek at Country Club of Pittsfield warrant consideration?

Ken

[John Foley]

Kittansett - 1922

[Thomas MacWood]

I don't know anything about the CC of Pittsfield, was it well respected? I just looked in my Stiles book it was built in 1931. Taconic I would think should be included. As far The Orchards, I've exclued nine hole courses in the past, but I might make an exception for Mass. I think there were a few interesting nine-holers.

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, ? A.Campbell, 1913 Windeler

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Strong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - ? Ross, ? Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

[bill_k]

How about CC of New Bedford? Shortish, but very violent terrain and a great set of greens. Wish I had taken some pictures when I was up that way.

[Ray Richard]

Myopia Hunt
Oyster Harbors
Brae-Burn
Eastward Ho!
Thorny-Lea, Brockton,Ma

[Willie_Dow]

My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn.

Gil Hanse has brought back its great openness to Buzzards Bay, and John Kelley, Super has done remarkable work with the bunker surrounds plus much needed attention to drainage.

Having been there this week to follow the 100th Mass Amateur, along with Mel Lucas, a great evaluator of green accomplishments, he commended John for what is now on display.

 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom:

You usually exclude 9-hole courses? Are you looking for a fight? I'll come over to your house right now and explain the merits of 9-hole golf courses! Where do you live?


Anthony

[Thomas MacWood]

Anthony
What the hell do you know about 9-hole courses? What are you some kind of expert? If you know so much...why don't you write a book.

Any good candidates?

[TEPaul]

"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:

Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett. 

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Have you ever heard of collaboration...its kind of awkward having three guys simultaneously drawing on a map. I believe Walter E. Johnson drew up every plan Ross did in the 20s and to my knowledge did not route a single hole. Give your Philly express a rest.

[wsmorrison]

Flynn routed and designed Kittansett.  Wilson was up there for 2 days during Flynn's first walk around.  On another thread, Tom MacWood attributed Kittansett to Wilson, Flynn and Hood.  In reality, he has no idea what any of them did at Kittansett.   Yet, MacWood passes off his lists as somehow accurate.   Flynn was from Marion, MA.  Please do not let MacWood convince anyone that this is some sort of Philly express.  His accusations are a complete waste of time and his perspectives are curious and prone to errors.

As far as can be determined with evidence amassed today, Hood only oversaw the construction of Kittansett according to Flynn's plans.  Wilson and Flynn probably shared concepts during the two days the two were up there together.

I don't know what dates MacWood uses.  It would appear that it isn't the opening year of the golf course, at least not as far as Kittansett is concerned.  Kittansett construction began in 1922.  Nine holes were ready for play in August 1923 and the entire 18 holes were playable in October 1923.   

Why did Tom MacWood choose 1927?   In any case, he should amend his attribution for The Country Club.  Does he know when Flynn planned the changes and additions at The Country Club?  Does he know what those changes were and what the routing progression was?  What does he know?  I've got a minute.  I think he can tell me everything he knows about Kittansett and TCC in that amount of time.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Calm down, the pride of Philadelphia is not at stake. You guys are starting to come off as a little psychotic....or more psychotic than ever.

For years F.C. Hood was credited with the design of Kittansett. I've given due credit to Wilson & Flynn, listing poor Mr. Hood #3, just as George Thomas listed the trio in his book. Wasn't Frederic Hood a self-made expert in greenkeeping - not bad for the president of a rubber company - and he was the main force behind the founding of the club. Throw Hood a bone.

At the rate you are going we may not have any architects outside Philly being given credit for anything of note.

[wsmorrison]

I don't need to calm down.  I am not perturbed in the least.  A bit weary of your nonsensical presentations on here though.  This is not about the pride of Philadelphia or psychotic episodes.  Stop deflecting your boneheaded attributions with that nonsense.  Everyone can see how ridiculous your defensive replies are when your statements don't fit the facts.

So for years Hood was credited with the design of Kittansett.  What does that mean?  It shouldn't mean anything to you if you wish to remain consistent.  Frederick Hood was instrumental in early turf grass studies as a member of the green committee at TCC and on the board of the Green Section.  What does that have to do with architectural attribution?  Hood was the main force in the founding of the club, and just what implication is there in that regarding design?  I'm sure the standards you use for architectural attribution are about as consistent as your illogical pronouncements.

At the rate your going all sense and facts will be thrown out the window in the history of the world according to Tom MacWood.  Mel Brooks's history was more accurate than yours and a lot funnier.  None of this has anything to do with Philly.  It is more likely an artifact that many of us in Philadelphia just recognize your BS so readily and are willing to call you on it, but you think it is some sort of conspiracy.  Get with the program, Tom.  It is your faults and errors that cause these issues.  Nothing else.  I believe that the better thinkers on this site recognize this and what you stand for.

If you want to give Hood credit (for what, you don't make at all clear), then do so.  But admit to everyone that you don't have any facts to back it up.  Nor are you accurate in regards to TCC due to a lack of knowledge as well.  Not that it has stopped you before from making unsupported claims in your efforts to rewrite history. 

[DMoriarty]

"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:

Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett. 

The new logic:  Draftsman = Designer.

By this logic, Billy P. Bell is even more under-appreciated than was previously suggested.  As far as I know, Bell did the bulk (if not all) of the drawing for the best and most famous Thomas courses.  And he built them.   He also apparently did some of the drawing for Watson.  I guess we should wipe Thomas and Watson from the books.

________________________

Wayne,   Why did George Thomas credit Hood, along with Flynn and Wilson?   Do you have the facts backing up your claim that George Thomas was wrong? 

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Since when did you become interested in historical accuracy? Just kidding.

Wilson wrote on March 31, 1922 to Oakley: "I have just gotten back from Marion, where I spent two days with Mr. Hood and Flynn. It certainly is a good piece of ground and it ought to make a bully golf course."

April 9, 1922 the Boston Globe reports the course has been laid out and blueprints submitted (no architect or architects are named).

George Thomas, who laid out the nine-hole course a mile or so down the road from KC, gave credit to Wilson, Flynn and Hood, in that order.

Kittansett was Frederic Hood's baby, he was a major force in the formation of the club and was the primary caretaker of the course for decades, giving him minor credit is more than fair IMO.

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