Massachusetts 1927

[Travis Dewire]

Haha, okay Tom

Go tell my friends at Woodland, Dedham, and the MGA, they are all wrong!

[Travis Dewire]

The Stiles a book is done by outside research

The Woodland book was written by people who's ancestors, knew Wayne Stiles. And their records. Which these researchers, have no access to

[Travis Dewire]

Could Findlay have expanded the holes to 18? Is there any possibility, that your magazine is flat out wrong. I mean, do you have any idea what the membership at Dedham is like, and has been? Do you honestly think they were giving out interviews to joke gossip magazines about the details of their elite club??? I don't. You have some article, I have some article. Whose right?

Like I said. The Massachusetts Golf Association lists Findlay as an architect. Before you go to refuting them, let me talk to a friend, and get more information about the source, and talk to someone from Dedham. Then we will have a much clearer answer than, no I am wrong and you are right because you have an article in some magazine called Outing.

Do you know anything about the history of the sporting magazine Outing??

DCPC doesn't even submit itself to the Golf/Golf Digest rankings, because they don't care for some 2-bit magazine talking about their blue blood club

[Tom MacWood]

The Stiles a book is done by outside research

The Woodland book was written by people who's ancestors, knew Wayne Stiles. And their records. Which these researchers, have no access to

Outside research...what does that mean? Its a very well done biography, and I'd strongly recommend it to anyone interested in Stiles & Van Kleek and New England golf architecture.

You said Stiles laid out Woodland in 1901. Stiles was 17 in 1901. The earliest known Stiles design is 1916. There is detailed list of his designs/redesigns (created by Stiles on his letterhead) in the Stiles biography and Woodland is not listed.

I cannot comment on the Woodland history because I haven't read it, but if that is your source for Stiles laying out the course in 1901 its wrong. As you may know club histories can be hit and miss.

[Tom MacWood]

Could Findlay have expanded the holes to 18? Is there any possibility, that your magazine is flat out wrong. I mean, do you have any idea what the membership at Dedham is like, and has been? Do you honestly think they were giving out interviews to joke gossip magazines about the details of their elite club??? I don't. You have some article, I have some article. Whose right?

Like I said. The Massachusetts Golf Association lists Findlay as an architect. Before you go to refuting them, let me talk to a friend, and get more information about the source, and talk to someone from Dedham. Then we will have a much clearer answer than, no I am wrong and you are right because you have an article in some magazine called Outing.

Do you know anything about the history of the sporting magazine Outing??

DCPC doesn't even submit itself to the Golf/Golf Digest rankings, because they don't care for some 2-bit magazine talking about their blue blood club

Yes, its possbile Findlay expanded the course at some point. Outing is a very good resource for early American golf architecture; I've found it be very reliable. Walter Travis, George Sargent and others were contributors. The article in question was written by George Sargent, and is one of the better articles written about early Boston golf course developments.

Your attitude regarding this whole subject is little perplexing.

[Travis Dewire]

The original 9 holes, was most likely added sometime between, 1907 and 1928. Stiles is credited as the course's first architect, with Ross doing a redesign in 1928. Because Stiles was unkown in 1901, it is pretty likely that he built the course, to its present day 18 hole form, with Ross adding his layers

I never said stiles did work in 1901. I said he likely did work sometime between 1907 and 1928.

It is outside research because it can or can not include information from within clubs. When I look at the 50 year book this week, I'm sure it will have Stiles listed, as it does in the 100 year. What I can't get over is, if Stiles had nothing to do with the course, how does he get included in the 50 year history? At the time of 1947, there are a lot of members at Woodland, who knew Mr. Stiles. If stiles had nothing to do with building any holes, he would not have been listed, and that would have been made sure. If he had done work, he would be listed. Hence, why I think he was listed. His friend Francis Ouimet, whom a member in 1947, most certaintly would have known Stiles did no work at Woodland, and it would have not appeared in the 50 year book.


again, you need to read my posts:
Well the club is listed, as 9 holes in 1901, and had already been incorporated for roughly 4 years. You have Ross listed as the first archietect in 22, but someone had to lay the course used for 20 odd years.

So in the first sentence, I am agreeing with your last post. Yes, in 1899, there had been 9 holes already in existence for a "number of years" Inc. in 1897, the golf guide lists 9 holes in 1901. So again, we are on the same page here.

You have Ross listed as 1915 for Dedham. I am not disputing that. What I am saying is this. From 1901 to 1915, Findaly could have visted in that time period. I am not saying he designed their links in 1897. Im saying that, because he is listed, I would assume he came before 1915, and after the dates you mentioned about his career.

It is my general understanding, that these clubs kept record of their actions, on the presumption that it would be included in the club's history, 100, 200 years down the road.

Do you think a man like, Sargent, with all his lineal ancestors recorded and traced back to the Massachusetts Bay Colony, is going to forget to document the history of his 30 year old club? And if he does, I'm sure The Cabot's, Lowell's, and Peabody's could have remembered to write it down

[Tom MacWood]

You said in the history book Stiles is said to be Woodland's original architect. The eighteen hole course was built in 1902/03. Stiles was a teenager in 1902/03. Your history book is wrong. As Mike pointed out there is very good article in Golf magazine from 1904 that describes how and who developed the new eighteen, and describes all 18 holes. There is an article in the Boston Globe (11/22/1903) in which Alfred Howard describes every hole in detail as well. There is an article in the Boston Globe (11/28/1915) detailing some minor changes to the golf course. This is probably when Stiles was involved. In this same article it mentions he just got into involved architectural work, and was designing a new nine at Nashau, NH. Put down the history book, stop defending the book and its authors with your bizarre logic and go look up some of these contemporaneous records. You will have whole new appreciation for the facts.

Speaking of reading posts, did you misunderstand when I said, yes, it is possbile Findlay expanded Dedham at some point? The question was not was he involved, the question was did he design the original course in 1896-97.

[Travis Dewire]

I recall coming across a real good article about Woodland that I can't find right now from pre-1915 that seemed to suggest a few players were involved with the evolution of that course, including Donald Ross and Alex Findlay.   It wa a fairly lengthy article in one of the magazines on the USGA site.

This article that Mike mentioned?? So 100 years of close kept historical information, should be overturned because Mike thinks he remembers an article?

Why didn't you mention your 1903 Howard article before? Is he describing all 18 holes of the course? Or 9? What does the article in 1915 say about the course/changes? Adding holes, redesigning, what were the changes?

When the history book says, "Stiles was the first architect" it does not reflect that Stiles built what Howard did. So howard built either 9, or 18, holes, mind you he was no course architect. So at any point if Stiles, or Ross, or Raynor, or Tilly, came to Woodland, they would be the first architect to do any work on the course. See what I'm saying? I'm not disputing what Howard did. I'm saying, I think Stiles should be attributed to the course, just as Woodland does.

Go tell the 3rd generation memerbers from 1930 that their club history is flat out wrong. I don't think you would be received with open ears.

[Tom MacWood]

Howard describes the eighteen hole golf course in the 1903 article. The changes in 1915 were relatively minor -- adding bunkers, moving some tees, shaving down a hill. If you can confirm Stiles did the work I'll be glad to add him.

Give me the email address of the 3rd generation member, I'll be glad to share with him what I have found.

[Mike Cirba]

Travis,

I'm not sure the deal at Dedham, but I would think Woodland would embrace the idea of one of their own designing the original course with input from Ross and Findlay, and later revisions by Stiles.

Seems quite an impressive legacy, I'd think, and it was certainly well-regarded back then.

[Travis Dewire]

Cornish is under the impression that Stiles was there:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=fqhaTaaSGoPGlQfFl7D_DA&ct=result&id=WlQ3AQAAIAAJ&dq=%22Wayne+Stiles%22+woodland&q=%22woodland%22#search_anchor

The Golf Course , also written by Cornish and Ron Whitten, also lists Stiles with work on Woodland.

I'm not disputing Howard, I'm disputing the absence of Stiles. He should be included, to make, Howard, Stiles, Ross.

The history book says Stiles came to Woodland. Not he built their course, but he was the first architect. Meaning, the first person they sought out, and paid for, to work on their course. This statement, does not discredit Howard, in anyway. There were changes made in 1915 by whom, we do not know for certain.

"Stiles does not appear to have played competitive golf after 1915, the year he launched his landscape design firm on Newbury Street." - from MGA member's magazine. In the same year of 1915, Stiles lost 4 & 3 to Ouimet, at Ouimet's home course of Woodland. Stiles had been competing with Francis, for a couple of years now, and no doubt, were friendly.

His first 9 holes were finished in 1916. Could he have been at Woodland to make some changes before that course had opened? In 1912, while a member at Brae Burn, Stiles is introduced to Donald Ross, whom came for a redesign, whose brother Alex, was also the head pro.

Stiles is littered all over Newton history. He is even mentioned in your article! Woodland credits him with some work, your article even discusses his career, yet there is no person attributed to changes made in 1915. Additionally, any person receiving compensation for design work, forfeited their amateur status, until the rule was reversed in 1916. For all we know, Stiles could have been active from 1914 - 1916, flying under the radar, and not keeping record of his work.

Please post the 1915 article if you can.

And no I will not give you my friends emails

[Tom MacWood]

I will post the article if you give me those email addresses.

[Phil_the_Author]

Travis,

Here are the articles that Tom referred to:





I'll email them to you as I can't seem to get them large enough to read on the thread...

[Travis Dewire]

I will post the article if you give me those email addresses.

Is that a joke?

[Tom MacWood]

Woodland is listed as organized in 1895, mainly for the use of the guests at The Woodland Park Hotel. It is listed as a 3,000 yard 9 hole course. This is taken from the 1901 Harper's Golf Guide. Course is located in the village of Aburndale, Newton, Ma, and has remained there. The club's centennial notes "Woodland is not, nor has ever been, a Donald Ross golf course. The original 9 holes, was most likely added sometime between, 1907 and 1928. Stiles is credited as the course's first architect, with Ross doing a redesign in 1928. Because Stiles was unkown in 1901, it is pretty likely that he built the course, to its present day 18 hole form, with Ross adding his layers. It should be noted that this was Francis Ouimet's home club, and each year hosts the final day (the first 36 are always different) of the 54 hole Ouimet Invitational. Won by Brad Faxon circa 1985. I would also include this in your list. The number of Mass Am's, and the fact that Ouimet chose this as his home course, says something about the quality of it.

So how should I credit Stiles for Woodland?

[Tom MacWood]

This is what Woodland's web site says about the courses background. Do you think this is accurate?

"In the fall of 1896, a group of men determined to promote the interests of the game of golf met at Auburndale’s Woodland Park Hotel. By the turn of the century, Woodland Golf Club of Auburndale was a nine-hole golf course measuring 2619 yards. By 1907, the course was expanded to 18 holes. The architect of record for Woodland’s golf course was Wayne Stiles."

"By 1901 the founders of Woodland had constructed the club’s first true golf course – a nine-hole layout measuring 2619 yards.  By 1907 the club built its first 18-hole course, measuring 5623 yards with nine holes on each side of the railroad tracks.  In the 1920s Donald Ross was commissioned to redesign the existing layout.

While Wayne Stiles is the architect of record, there is no question that Ross spent considerable time working on the Woodland remodeling.  Ross’ contouring, bunkering and routing affected 9 holes.  His most important contribution, however, was the course routing, which remained largely unchanged until the early 1960s, and even then was incorporated into the “new Woodland”.

In 1960 architect Geoffrey Cornish (noted for his work at The Country Club and Myopia Hunt Club, among others) undertook a massive hole-by-hole redesign of the golf course.  “I have been extremely proud over the years to claim that I was associated with the remodeling of Woodland,” Cornish noted in 2001, adding that the job was “the first comprehensive remodeling executed in the Boston area” in almost a quarter century."

Was the inaccurate attribution in Cornish & Whitten due to an erroneous club history or is the erroneous club history due to the C&W's attribution? In other words which came first?

[Travis Dewire]

This is what I found on Woodlands website;

In the fall of 1896, a group of men determined to promote the interests of the game of golf met at Auburndale’s Woodland Park Hotel. By the turn of the century, Woodland Golf Club of Auburndale was a nine-hole golf course measuring 2619 yards. By 1907, the course was expanded to 18 holes. The architect of record for Woodland’s golf course was Wayne Stiles.

In 1910, future United States Open Champion Francis Ouimet was a young high school golfer determined to play in the U.S. Amateur. In Francis’ own words, "To compete in the national amateur championship I had to belong to a recognized golf club…I put in an application for junior membership in the Woodland Golf Club… I was elected to membership in Woodland, paid my dues, then got busy to find myself a job."

In the 1920’s additional land was purchased and famed golf course architect Donald Ross was commissioned to redesign the existing layout. In the early 1960’s, Woodland retained noted golf course architect Geoffrey Cornish for the great redesign of the golf course.

In recent years, there have been major renovations of both the clubhouse and golf course. We continue to respect our Club’s 110 years of history. Today, Woodland Golf Club is a modern club with a diverse membership of local and seasonal residents, many of whose families have belonged for generations.


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not sure why those are different.

But I will point out a couple of things. By 1907 the course was expanded to 18 holes. Okay, clearly they have record of their being an 18 hole course, in 1907, but they do not have a record for the exact year it was built. That is how I would interpurt "By 1907, the course was expanded to 18 holes" Meaning, Sometime between the turn of the century, and 1907, an additional 9 holes were added.

The next sentence says, "The architect of record for Woodland's first course". In the context of the paragraph, this is quite vague. I would not interpurt this as them saying Stiles did this, or Stiles did that. I would interput this as a general statement saying, Stiles is the first recorded architect to visit Woodland, (followed by Ross).

Just like at some other courses in the area, we find members building the first tracks. Surely you would not consider those men architects, would you? Atleast from a club's standpoint, I would not have considered him an architect to come to the course. He was simply the Chairman of the Board, and a well respected member, who is the grandfather of the club, who also built the first 9 and then additional 9 holes. He was a businessman, who was a well respected sportsman, but not an architect in the true sense.

I would like to see Stiles with a 1914-15?, sandwiched in between Ross and Howard.

I would also say that the club's history came before Cornish. The 100 year history book is more or less a copy, with some updates, of the 50 year history done in 1946/7, which is most likely where Cornish got his information. Perhaps he scowled through club records himself, but that seems unlikely.

Please post any articles or other sources discussing Howard's role in the course at Woodland. I am more than happy to send your findings a long to Woodland, to record Howard's legacy. You probably would not be surprised how many people a) have no clue, or b) think Woodland is a Ross course.

If you hit a 7 iron from the 4th green at brae burn, it would sail down a slope, over route 16 Washington St. (boston marathon route) and onto the 18th fairway of woodland

[Tom MacWood]

I would like to see Stiles with a 1914-15?, sandwiched in between Ross and Howard.

Once you are able to confirm if and when Stiles (and Ross for that matter) was involved I'll be glad to add him.

[Joe Bausch]

More on Brookline, this from the Aug 29, 1899 edition of the NY Herald Tribune, courtesy of a lurker.



The additional acreage in the form of the Baker estate was purchased in January of that year, I believe.   I also believe Herbert Windeler was involved in the final product.