[DMoriarty]

Again Mike, I don't see what is confusing about this article.  I really wish you would stop trying to go out of your way to muddy waters.   He wasn't talking about 1895.  That was three years earlier.    The Country Club had already bought the land four months prior to the article. 

But you go ahead and keep trying to get all the milage you can out of Sargent reporting that Campbell laid out TCC in 1893 instead of early 1894.  We all know your tune will change as soon as you find something from Sargent you want to rely upon.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You don't think this is confusing and often contradictory??  

You are the one who speculated that Willie Campbell may have laid out an eighteen hole course in 1895 when they first tried to expand.   That would make perfect sense to me as he was the pro there who had already expanded and enlarged and mostly replaced the original six hole course.

You were also the one to try and transpose this original 1895 course idea to the course that opened in 1899.   Were they the same routing four years later?   I don't know...Windeler doesn't seem to say anything on this matter.

It seems less likely to me that the club would have cut ties with Willie Campbell in 1896 only to bring him back in 1898 to expand the course, but it's possible, I guess.  

I just think Windeler might have mentioned it, so I suggested it's possible that Sargent was confusing the two separate efforts to expand to eighteen at Brookline.  

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

I did not say that he laid out the course in 1895.  I said he may have planned a course then, but that is pure speculation on my part based on the timing.

This article requires no such speculation.  THE ARTICLE IS  NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT WAS ONGOING IN 1895, it is talking about what was ongoing in 1898.  It was written at a time when TCC had finally gotten hold of the land, and it indicates that Campbell laid out the extension.    Whether that layout was based on some ideas he had earlier I have no idea, and it doesn't really impact what this article says one way or another.

You have a habit of playing dumb (at least I hope it is playing) when you don't like where the documents lead, and it is getting quite old.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I said clearly that you "speculated", but now that you mention it, I thought it was your contention that nobody back then "planned" courses as a separate process, whether on paper or otherwise, but simply laid them out on the ground?   You were quite adamant about that if I recall.

Wasn't that the argument you made to summarily dismiss the idea that the members at Myopia might have planned the course by staking it out in March/April and then later having Willie Campbell lay it out on the ground, whether that meant constructing tees, greens, artificial hazards, and laying sod?

[DMoriarty]

As usual, Mike, you misunderstoodd and/or misrepresented my comments earlier.   I could try to lay it all out again, but I have too many times before, and it would likely be of no use, since you seem unwilling and/or incapable of comprehending the types of subtle distinctions and differences upon which such understanding necessarily relies.   Productive conversation requires a modicum of good faith and effort on the part of the participants to at least try and grasp what the others are saying, and whether intentional or not, that good faith effort is lacking on your part. 

So I'll keep it simple.   Either AM&G or someone else could have planned Myopia in advance.  But there is no contemporaneous evidence suggesting it, and that little reason to believe they would have.

Bring forward documents indicating that the planned the course ahead of time, and I'll consider them.   Weeks doesn't cut it.  By his own language it was clear he was speculating.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Any thoughts on Willie Campbell as the designer of the 1899 TCC?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Any thoughts on Willie Campbell as the designer of the 1899 TCC?

Here's a bit more about Windeler from a 1903 article;

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Are you planning to change your attribution of TCC's 1899 eighteen hole version to Willie Campbell?   Why or why not?

Thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Who would you say is responsible for the first 18 hole course at TCC that opened in 1899?   Do you think Willie Campbell should get that credit?   Why or why not?

I'm asking because I am hoping for a second informed opinion based on what you know before I change my own database.

Would you rather discuss it on your more comprehensive "Mysteries" thread?   Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

I think it's possible Campbell is responsible but I'd like to see more evidence.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I would agree and think at least a second, distinct source might be needed.   Thanks.

[DMoriarty]

Of course more information would be nice, but that is always the case.  Within the membership, Windeler was apparently most involved, but as far as outside or professional help goes, the Willie Campbell mention is about all we have, isn't it?

TomM,  I have a vague recollection of you mentioning at some point that W Campbell may have acted as a clearinghouse of sorts for placing Scottish professionals.  Did I dream that, or did you mention that at some point?  Whether you mentioned that or not, do you think it possible or likely?

The article with Mrs. Campbell makes it sound as if, far from being "itinerant," WC was quite happy to work and live in and around Boston year round. But surely he must have been in demand elsewhere, especially for summer gigs.  Do you think he may have been passing along those opportunities to others?

Aside from 1896 to Philadelphia, did Campbell travel away from New England to lay out courses?

[Travis Dewire]

The courses that standout to me, missing from the 1927 list, Wollaston, Woodland, Kernwood, Oak Hill, CC of Springfield and Sandy Burr.

What are the opinions about the strength of these courses?

Are there courses currently on the '27 list that should be removed?

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet.

Wollaston was at the site of current day Presidents Golf Club, in the village/district of Wollaston,Quincy, MA. Presidents is now a municipal course, but does host the Norfolk Amatuer - attracting the regions best players, yearly. George and Tom Fazio did redesign work, when the club relocated to Milton, in circa 1975 - the course at Milton was designed by Tom Fazio (I would guess George too, but I dont' know for certain). Wollaston was incoporated in 1899. In The Hapers 1901 Golf Guide, the club is listed as in the process of expanding from 9 to 18 holes. I do not know who designed this course, but my intuition tells me that it was by someone, with some notoriety. I think it should be included in the list for best in 1927.

Woodland is listed as organized in 1895, mainly for the use of the guests at The Woodland Park Hotel. It is listed as a 3,000 yard 9 hole course. This is taken from the 1901 Harper's Golf Guide. Course is located in the village of Aburndale, Newton, Ma, and has remained there. The club's centennial notes "Woodland is not, nor has ever been, a Donald Ross golf course. The original 9 holes, was most likely added sometime between, 1907 and 1928. Stiles is credited as the course's first architect, with Ross doing a redesign in 1928. Because Stiles was unkown in 1901, it is pretty likely that he built the course, to its present day 18 hole form, with Ross adding his layers. It should be noted that this was Francis Ouimet's home club, and each year hosts the final day (the first 36 are always different) of the 54 hole Ouimet Invitational. Won by Brad Faxon circa 1985. I would also include this in your list. The number of Mass Am's, and the fact that Ouimet chose this as his home course, says something about the quality of it.

Kernwood is a Ross course, located in the golf rich Salem, MA. The club lists its incorporation date as 1914. Great course, and should be included on the list.

I would also make an amendment to Dedham, to include Findlay, as the first architect. He is listed in an issue of Mass Golfer, about Dedham. Listing as follows, Findlay, Fowler, Ross, Raynor. Just as you have it, minus Findlay. I

[Tom MacWood]

What year did Findlay design Dedham?

[Travis Dewire]

Well the club is listed, as 9 holes in 1901, and had already been incorporated for roughly 4 years. You have Ross listed as the first archietect in 22, but someone had to lay the course used for 20 odd years. I will pressume this to be Findaly. I will followup with the MGA about a source for this. It should be available, since they are passing this information off as truth

[Tom MacWood]

I added Kernwood and Woodland, but as late as 1920 Kernwood was only nine holes. When did it become 18, and by whom. Dedham was founded in 1897. Isn't that too early for Findlay?

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1896 J. Lloyd, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1897 Phelps, 1904 ?, 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1897 ?, 1915 Ross, 1921 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Hatch/Ross

Berkshire Hunt - 1926 Stiles

Oak Hill - 1920 Stiles, 1927 Ross

Kernwood - 1914 Ross

Woodland - 1902 Howard

[Tom MacWood]

Well the club is listed, as 9 holes in 1901, and had already been incorporated for roughly 4 years. You have Ross listed as the first archietect in 22, but someone had to lay the course used for 20 odd years. I will pressume this to be Findaly. I will followup with the MGA about a source for this. It should be available, since they are passing this information off as truth

I have Ross listed as the first architect in 1922?

[Tom MacWood]

Of course more information would be nice, but that is always the case.  Within the membership, Windeler was apparently most involved, but as far as outside or professional help goes, the Willie Campbell mention is about all we have, isn't it?

TomM,  I have a vague recollection of you mentioning at some point that W Campbell may have acted as a clearinghouse of sorts for placing Scottish professionals.  Did I dream that, or did you mention that at some point?  Whether you mentioned that or not, do you think it possible or likely?

The article with Mrs. Campbell makes it sound as if, far from being "itinerant," WC was quite happy to work and live in and around Boston year round. But surely he must have been in demand elsewhere, especially for summer gigs.  Do you think he may have been passing along those opportunities to others?

Aside from 1896 to Philadelphia, did Campbell travel away from New England to lay out courses?

I don't think I mentioned he was a clearinghouse, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was instrumental in guys coming over and helping to find homes. I did mention Alex Findlay was playing out of Franklin Park for a while and Arthur Lockwood was his protege at FP as well, although he was not a pro. I also believe Campbell was instrumental in getting Joe Lloyd to come over.

I don't think winter/summer jobs in America were all that common in Campbell's day. Lloyd had a winter job in France, but he was probably the exception. That phenomenon became more common after he died.

That side trip to Phila/NJ is the only one outside NE I'm aware of.

[Travis Dewire]

Sorry on the date. I know I meant whatever date you had.

From my understanding, Findlay could have been active around 1897. Bass Rocks Golf Club, in Gloucester, Ma, was established in 1896, and had 6 holes laid out by Alex Findlay. The city engineer than added 9 holes, in 1904. So it is undoubtable that Findaly was there between those two dates. We can guess it was probably closer to the 1896 date.

So I think Findlay could have defnitely built some holes at dedham, before Ross got there in 1915. Additionally, it is Dedham Country and Polo Club. Golf could not have surfaced at DCPC untill a year or two after its organization, putting Findaly at the course more at the turn of the century.

Like I said, this information was obtained from a Mass Golf Association publication. It should be rather easy to follow up to source this information. Also I will shoot up an e-mail to my pal at k-wood to see if he knows when the second 9 was added - I just assumed, by 1927 it had 18. Ouimet won the State Am at Kernwood in 1922 - I would pressume this to be on an 18 hole course.

Also, who is "Howard" with credit of Woodland, and no mention of a Stiles, or Ross visit?

[Tom MacWood]

Alex Findlay was living in Wyoming from 1887 to July 1897. He took job at Wright & Ditson, a sporting goods store in Boston, in 1897. If they were playing golf at Dedham prior to July 1897 it was designed by someone else.

Alfred Howard was the chairman of the golf committee at Woodland, and is credited with designing the golf course in 1903. Findlay and Donald Ross advised. Wayne Stiles' first known design is 1916. There were some minor changes made to Woodland in 1915 designer unknown, and its possible Stiles was involved (although he never listed the course among those he designed/redesigned). 1915 was the year of the Ouimet controversy, when he lost his amateur status, and perhaps Stiles was operating under the radar in order to preserve his status. He was a very good amateur golfer. The USGA fixed/addressed the issue in 1916. Regarding Ross, the title of thread is 1927 so anything done in 1928 would not be included.

[Travis Dewire]

Tom,

The club's incorporation date, does not denote the date of the first course. Dedham's inc. date does not disprove, or prove, Findlay had anything to do with it. If it is listed in state, and/or club records, than I think we will have to accept it.

On Woodland, their centinnial book, lists Stiles as their first architect. It could easily have been ommitted off his list, due to the amateur status issue. Ouimet still being a member at the club in 1947 the 50 year aniv., there could have been no disputing who designed the course

[Tom MacWood]

According to May 1899 article in Outing the members of the Dedham Polo Club took up the game 'some three years ago', secured a tract a of land and laid out a short course of nine holes. It sounds to me like the golf club (which was a spin off of the polo club) was formed after the golf course. It is very unlikely Findlay had anything to do with laying out the original golf course.

The Woodland history book is wrong, which is not unusual. Alfred Howard laid out the course in 1902/03.

In 1902 Wayne Stiles was 18 years old and working as an office boy for the architectural firm of Brett and Hall. At the time he playing his golf at Kenilworth GC in Allston. If you don't already have the book on Stiles & Van Kleek I would highly recommend it.

[Mike Cirba]

I recall coming across a real good article about Woodland that I can't find right now from pre-1915 that seemed to suggest a few players were involved with the evolution of that course, including Donald Ross and Alex Findlay.   It wa a fairly lengthy article in one of the magazines on the USGA site.

[Tom MacWood]

The article stated Findlay and Ross gave advise to Howard, which is what I wrote four posts ago.

[Mike Cirba]

Not that he needed any,,, 

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