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Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #200 on: January 31, 2011, 06:33:11 AM »
TomM,

So far as I can tell, A. Campbell first came to Boston from Scotland on April 1st, 1899.  His occupation listed as "golfer."  You mentioned that Windeler may have brought him over, but I have found nothing indicating that he was brought over by Windeler, the Country Club or anyone at the the Country Club.  

Rather, he seems to have been brought over David Duncan Fletcher, a bookkeeper who was also a reporter, a writer, and the publisher of a weekly newspaper called "The Anglo American."  Fletcher sounds like a colorful fellow who was very into all things Scottish.  He was reportedly a avid yet so-so golfer who published at least one article on St. Andrews, wrote a number of songs, poems, and toasts about things Scottish, including a poem called "My Golfing Girl," and was the subject of at least one published humorous golf anecdote.   I have been unable to find any connection between Fletcher and the Country Club, and he doesn't seem to have been in the right social status for the North Shore set.  Perhaps he was a member of some lesser club or group, maybe even a Franklin Park player, or perhaps his interest in bringing over Campbell was more related to money matches or the equipment trade.

So it is not entirely clear to me how Campbell hooked up with the Country Club, but the fact that he was a mind-numbingly good golfer probably had something to do with it.  The first mention I've thus far seen referencing Campbell at the Country Club was June of 1899. It is not at all clear what his duties were there, all that is clear is that he was playing matches as their representative.  He was around 19 years old at the time, and was reportedly a good friend of the older Willie Campbell, even serving as pallbearer at his funeral the next year.  

I have yet to see anything indicating that Alexander Campbell was responsible for the extension of the Country Club course to 18 holes in 1898-1899.   Give that it was reported that new holes had already been laid out in the May 1899 Outing Magazine, it seems extremely unlikely.

I still wonder about whether W.Campbell had any involvement with the expansion at TCC.  I saw a reference to a exhibition at TCC between two professionals (A. Campbell and Lloyd or Jones, I think) in Oct. 1899, and W.Campbell was present, but I am not sure if this was in conjunction with the opening or not.   (I don’t have the reference handy, but will try to find it later.)


David
The article in American Golfer (posted above) said Wendeler brought him over from Scotland in 1899, and from St. Andrews specifically. I doubt he physically brought him over. I suspect Campbell went to St.Andrews to learn the professional trade, especially club-making. That is what Ross and a lot of others did as well. That particular article also states, in two places, that he came over in 1899. I don't think there is much question he came over in 1899.

Wendeler was calling the shots at Brookline during his tenure. Not only did he have a major influence on the architecture of Brookline, he had a major influence on American architecture through his connection with Carters, the most prominent construction company of the first two or three decades of the 20thC.

Mike
I'm still waiting for clarification about the Mrs. Campbell article. What other newspapers did it appear in? I'm pretty sure I have access to the same papers you do, more or less, and I haven't found it anywhere but St. Paul. That it was widely distributed is that just an educated guess on your part?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 06:34:44 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #201 on: January 31, 2011, 06:37:03 AM »
David,

As Tom MacWood points out to you again, as he tried to earlier, perhaps actually reading before angrily typing and then hitting the "Enter" key may help avoid these kind of embarrassing episodes in the future.

Just a suggestion.

Tom MacWood,

I looked last night and that was a mistake on my part.    What I found the other day was actually the St. Paul Globe article, with about five pictures, which I mistakenly assumed was the same article in a different paper.   Apparently when Joe posted it here originally he had culled the photos and just posted the newsprint.  Sorry if my error led to wasted searches on your part.

I would still have to believe that it was a syndicated story as it seems unlikely that a beat reporter from MN would write a story about a woman pro in MA, but perhaps I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:05:29 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #202 on: January 31, 2011, 07:08:10 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Alex Campbell spent only a few months in St. Andrews.   The article above from American Golfer talks about him being a "journeyman" by age 19.

As far as TCC, can you describe for us which holes were lengthened and where in 1895 by Campbell?   If about five holes are still retained on today's course from that iteration, I'm trying to understand where you believe that to be the case. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 07:33:39 AM by MCirba »

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #203 on: January 31, 2011, 10:00:05 AM »
Dean M,

This is from the 1900 Harper Golf Guide. It lists Brae Burn as a 9 hole course at this time, with its completion in 1897. I think I referred to it in an earlier post, but in 1898, George Phelps added an addition 700 yards to the course. 700 yards! even today that is quite substantial, going from 3,300, to 4,000!!!!

I think the artile was talking about the new linkes, referreing to the new work done by Phelps. The course lenght listed in the club history, is 2701 yards. It would not be far off to guess the original course was 2,000 yards, and went to 2701, with the help oh Phelps. I think this is why they have referred to it as a "new" or the "permanent links". There was work done in 1898. All the holes remainded the same, they were just lengthened.

While your article may have billed the match as "an important match in Braeburn's history", this could be from the author's mouth. It is posible, that they conducted the match, to see how the course handled a crowd and an exhibiton match. A year later Harry Vardon played an exhibition match as well. So maybe it was a "try out"

I really feel like a line like "an important match in Braeburn's history" is quite far off. None of the players worked on the course, one was most likely the head pro, but has never been documented or recorded by the club. I don't think any of the Cabot's, Lowell's, nor Bacon's, figured this to be an "important" match, at their club. I think the importance of the match was fabricated by the author, just like it is known to happen.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #204 on: January 31, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Alex Campbell spent only a few months in St. Andrews.   The article above from American Golfer talks about him being a "journeyman" by age 19.

As far as TCC, can you describe for us which holes were lengthened and where in 1895 by Campbell?   If about five holes are still retained on today's course from that iteration, I'm trying to understand where you believe that to be the case. 

A few months of apprenticeship at St.Andrews sounds about right to me. By the way Alec Campbell had two brothers who were professionals in America too, I believe there names were Andrew and James. I'm not sure if they were older or younger, both were based near Philly. When I get a chance I'll try to figure out which holes were changed in 1895.


DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #205 on: January 31, 2011, 12:51:30 PM »
Mike Cirba,

As usual you twist and misrepresent not only the source material but also my positions in order to try to make your petty points, and in so doing you continue to prove yourself nothing but a petty partisan hack when it comes to issues of historical analysis.   For example, you continue to pretend that the record supports your claim that A Campbell was responsible for the additions at Brookline for 1898-1899.  There is no contemporaneous record even suggesting this.  Either come up with some facts or give it a rest.  

And quit misrepresenting my positions to make your petty points.  Willie Campbell had designed courses before he came here.  de St. Jorre put A Campbell at Brookline in 1900 (In case you hadn't noticed, I am not de St. Jorre.)  Yet despite this you pretended that de St. Jorre claimed that ACampbell made the changes in 1898-1899.  I point out the absurdity of your absurd position, and from this you conclude that I was wrong about A Campbell?  That's rich.

Quote
David,

As Tom MacWood points out to you again, as he tried to earlier, perhaps actually reading before angrily typing and then hitting the "Enter" key may help avoid these kind of embarrassing episodes in the future.

If you think my post to Tom MacWood regarding A Campbell was made in anger or without careful consideration, then you really are an idiot.  And for you to present this idiotic notion as if it was coming from MacWood?   Beyond the pale.  

I never figured you for as big a sleaze as your mentor, but perhaps I underestimated you.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 12:55:28 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #206 on: January 31, 2011, 01:31:37 PM »
David,

I take a great deal of comfort knowing I am simply among many others in a long line who either misninterpret what you wrote, don't quite understand you, and then when pressed, are either called idiotic, a sleaze, agenda-driven, not really interested, misinformed, biased, unable (re: too stupid) to interpret correctly, or a host of other personal insults, often many within the same post.   In fact, anyone here who has ever called your specious reasoning into account, or questioned your sometimes odd interpretation of known historical facts and wordings and question other fallacious logic tends to get the same DM treatment, with the end result that they get sh*t all over.   Perhaps we should get t-shirts reading, "I survived a historical attribution discussion with David Moriarty".  

Of course, that assumes they survive.   Some have just chosen to leave the site, sadly, but most just avoid these historical discussions entirely.  

As regards this particular issue, please show me where I said Alex Campbell was responsible for the 18-hole version of the course that opened in October 1899.   Instead, I asked you why you didn't mention the book's mention of Campbell's attribution role at Brookline. Again, this is what the book says;


"The stage was set for the further addition of holes when eighteen and a half acres, bounded by Clyde and Newton Streets, were purchased in April 1898, the clubs first acquisition since the purchase of the original 105 acres in 1896.  (During the first four years of the club's existence, the land had been leased).   The 1898 purchase allowed TCC to build an eighteen hole golf course, although Willie Campbell wasn't available to help, as he had left in 1896, moving to Franklin Park because of his interest in promoting golf to the public."

"The hiring of Campbell's successor, Walter F. Stoddard, was announced in an 1897 notice to members...Like Campbell, Stoddard also had a brief stay, 1897-1899.   Next was another Scot, and another Campbell, though no relation to Willie other than tribal.   This was Alexander "Nipper" Campbell, and as new terrain became available, he would be pressed into service as a course designer."

"It is not clear what part the Golf Committee, now consisting of George Cabot, G, Herbert Windeler...had in the conception of the new layout, but given the previous committee's involvement, it is safe to assume that these members were active participants.   The new eighteen hole golf course was officially opened in October, 1899."


 - The Story of Golf at The Country Club, _ John de St. Jorre.



You then tried to turn that into another game of one upsmanship, scolding me for my obvious lack of reading de Jorre's book, and pointing out rather proudly that de Jorre stated that Alex Campbell didn't make it to these shores until 1900 so he couldn't possibly have been involved in the 1899 golf course.

I showed you where Alex Campbell was in fact right there in Boston, in spring of 1899, and that WIndeler brought him here.

Not bothering to even read what I posted, and still not understanding the timeline, you again last night took me to task yet again for crediting Campbell with the 1899 golf course before he even arrived here.  

I never credited Campbell...I said he was here while the course was being designed and said I couldn't imagine they wouldn't have used his knowledge of courses abroad since they thought enough of him to hire him as pro at the prodigee age of 19.  

It was only after Tom MacWood corrected your understanding...again...that you backed down and then proceeded to try and tell us how much you know about Alex Campbell, all of which you obviously learned in the past 24 hours.

So how about you just drop the constant personal insults and the feigned indignation and have a real discussion about these matters rather than this constant attempted filibuster where your version of the truth is the only valid one.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 02:21:53 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #207 on: January 31, 2011, 02:21:44 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Don't blame me for the company you choose to keep.  Or their failings.  

David,
I never credited Campbell...I said he was here while the course was being designed and said I couldn't imagine they wouldn't have used his knowledge of courses abroad since they thought enough of him to hire him as pro at the prodigee age of 19.  

According to your sources, the land had been purchased and the course already laid out when he arrived.   Unless you think he laid out the course in the time between April 1st and when Sargent's May 1899 outing article went to press.  

Quote
It was only after Tom MacWood corrected your understanding...again...that you backed down and then proceeded to try and tell us how much you know about Alex Campbell, all of which you obviously learned in the past 24 hours.

I never claimed to know much about A Campbell.  But when I don't understand something or when I am curious about it, I try to figure it out.  I am just not as comfortable as you are at superficially misrepresenting source material to make my points.   And I don't research to serve some rhetorical agenda, so, for example, you won't find me posting articles from the mid 1940's to try and muddy our understanding about when A Campbell came to America.    I'd rather just figure it out for real.   Unlike you, I don't mind actually learn about the topics about which I opine.  

And Mike, I'll never make apologies for actually researching before I write.  That you choose to criticize me for researching before I write say an awful lot about you, though.

You keep saying that Windeler brought Campbell over from Scotland to serve as the professional at TCC.   Other than the 1933 article, do you have anything to back that up?    Or because you like what it says will you just accept that as absolute truth?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 02:29:32 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #208 on: January 31, 2011, 03:52:13 PM »
Tom M,

Regarding why Campbell came to America in 1899, that 1933 American Golf Article doesn't move me, at least regarding the details.  Windeler or someone obviously hired ACampbell at TCC within a matter of months so it may be irrelevant, but it interests me nonetheless.

Looking at the manifest, it appears that A Campbell came to the United States with Willie Chisholm and another professional named Harry McCormick.   Willie Chisholm immediately went to work as Wollaston's professional, and later reportedly worked at Mount Pleasant and Ardsley, and in Florida among other places (Chisholm famously took a 18 on a par three during the USOpen in 1919.)   Harry McCormack apparently acted as the professional during the summers at the Wentworth Hall course in Jackson NH, and also may have worked in Cincinnatti.

I think of the three, it sounds as if Chisholm was the most well known at the time.  Reportedly he had several years experience as a club maker and had played on at least one  international team for Scotland. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #209 on: January 31, 2011, 04:01:30 PM »
Also TomM

In the other thread you copied a piece of John Anderson's article on the Country Club:

"But in 1895 so much enthusiasm was rampant that plans were made to buy the Baker estate and convert the nine into an eighteen-hole links. Early the following year a circular was issued asking that 200 members subscribe an amount not exceeding $20 each. The response was disappointing and nothing was done. However, the matter was not dropped and two years later, January 18, 1898, to be exact, the club appropriate $42,000 to buy land and construct the course. there was countless difficulties to be overcome, the land was woody and patience combined with hard work accomplished wonders and on October 7, 1899, the new eighteen-hole course was opened with a match between Alec Campbell and John Jones." 

What I find interesting is that according to Windeler's presentation (Anderson's source) the extension to 18 holes was originally contemplated in 1895, which was before Campbell split.   Is it possible that the plan for the additional holes was drawn up in 1895 by W Campbell?   

Also, as I may have noted above, the Willie Campbell was notably present at the opening exhibition match between Alec Campbell and John Jones.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chris Hans

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #210 on: January 31, 2011, 07:53:05 PM »
Travis,

I believe Andrew Conway is still a member at Vesper.
I was an assistant super there for three years working for super Chris Morris who was largely responsible for getting our Donald Ross restoration started in 2009. I've since moved on to be an asst at St. Georges in Long Island.  But anyway, Vesper is an incredibly special place.  I'm shocked it doesn't get more recognition here. 

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #211 on: January 31, 2011, 09:36:52 PM »
Tom Mac Daddy,

C'mon dude...

Even you have to call BS on that one.

Next Willie Campbell will father several virgin births throughout the greater Boston area while casting out demons along the southern shore docks.  ;). ;D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #212 on: January 31, 2011, 10:28:34 PM »
Tom Mac Daddy,

C'mon dude...

Even you have to call BS on that one.

Next Willie Campbell will father several virgin births throughout the greater Boston area while casting out demons along the southern shore docks.  ;). ;D

Mike Cirba,   If you don't like being called an idiot, I'd suggest you quit acting like one.  

_________________________________________________________

From The Golfer, June 1898, my emphasis:

The new links [at Cambridge] will complete a trio of eighteen hole courses for this neighborhood.  The famous Country Club of Brookline has had a full course laid out by Willie Campbell, who also planned the course of the Cambridge Club, and the Myopia Hunt Club has taken steps to bring its links up to the standard number of holes.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #213 on: January 31, 2011, 10:45:30 PM »
Also TomM

In the other thread you copied a piece of John Anderson's article on the Country Club:

"But in 1895 so much enthusiasm was rampant that plans were made to buy the Baker estate and convert the nine into an eighteen-hole links. Early the following year a circular was issued asking that 200 members subscribe an amount not exceeding $20 each. The response was disappointing and nothing was done. However, the matter was not dropped and two years later, January 18, 1898, to be exact, the club appropriate $42,000 to buy land and construct the course. there was countless difficulties to be overcome, the land was woody and patience combined with hard work accomplished wonders and on October 7, 1899, the new eighteen-hole course was opened with a match between Alec Campbell and John Jones." 

What I find interesting is that according to Windeler's presentation (Anderson's source) the extension to 18 holes was originally contemplated in 1895, which was before Campbell split.   Is it possible that the plan for the additional holes was drawn up in 1895 by W Campbell?   

Also, as I may have noted above, the Willie Campbell was notably present at the opening exhibition match between Alec Campbell and John Jones.

On the other thread I had mentioned I thought this episode had an adverse effect on Campbell, resulting in his exodus, and the exodus of Leeds and Shaw, the two best golfers at Brookline, to Myopia. Its possible he shared his ideas in 1895, and they carried them out when they had the opportunity a few years later, but it would be very difficult to prove and Wendeler probably deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #214 on: January 31, 2011, 10:48:35 PM »
Tom M,

Regarding why Campbell came to America in 1899, that 1933 American Golf Article doesn't move me, at least regarding the details.  Windeler or someone obviously hired ACampbell at TCC within a matter of months so it may be irrelevant, but it interests me nonetheless.

Looking at the manifest, it appears that A Campbell came to the United States with Willie Chisholm and another professional named Harry McCormick.   Willie Chisholm immediately went to work as Wollaston's professional, and later reportedly worked at Mount Pleasant and Ardsley, and in Florida among other places (Chisholm famously took a 18 on a par three during the USOpen in 1919.)   Harry McCormack apparently acted as the professional during the summers at the Wentworth Hall course in Jackson NH, and also may have worked in Cincinnatti.

I think of the three, it sounds as if Chisholm was the most well known at the time.  Reportedly he had several years experience as a club maker and had played on at least one  international team for Scotland. 


David
I actually give the article more weight because it reads almost like an interview than a random article, I assume the info came straight from the source.

Travis Dewire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #215 on: February 01, 2011, 02:41:11 AM »
Chris,

I have played with Andrew in a few tournaments, and enjoyed every round i've gotten to play with him. You are right, Vesper is a great, and underrated course in the area. I played the Mass Open there in 05, and it was amazing. The greens were rolling just ahhhhhh! You had the rough so deep I couldn't hit more than a 7 iron out, everything was just super. I can't wait for a return visit.

A gentleman by the name of Mike Riney, plays at my club, and is from Chelmsford, and grew up playing at Vesper. You should hear him talk about it!

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #216 on: February 01, 2011, 08:38:29 AM »
David,

Have you seen the original eighteen hole routing of TCC that opened in 1899?   As Tom MacWood pointed out, those original plans were scrapped.   Everything I've seen has Windeler given responsibility for the course that opened.   

Why would you question Alex Campbell saying that Herb Windeler brought him over here?   Can the article possibly have more direct quotes from the man himself?   As Tom MacWood points out, you couldn't possibly get a better source than the man himself.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #217 on: February 01, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »
Mike Cirba,

You disingenuously pretend that Tom MacWood stated that "the original plans were scrapped."  Quit trying to put words on Tom MacWood's mouth.    

Reportedly, the extension was first contemplated in 1895 and in 1896, the idea received a disappointing response, possibly resulting in the exodus of some members and Campbell.   But according to Windeler, "the matter was not dropped and two years later, January 18, 1898, to be exact, the club appropriated $42,000 to buy land and construct the course."

January 18, 1898.  TCC appropriated money to buy land and construct the course.

May 1898.  The Golfer reported that Willie Campbell has laid out an eighteen hole course for TCC.

October 7, 1899.  The opening of the expanded course celebrated with a match between Alec Campbell and John Jones, with Willie Campbell looking on.

Why would you question Alex Campbell saying that Herb Windeler brought him over here?   Can the article possibly have more direct quotes from the man himself?

More misrepresentations.  The article quotes Campbell, but NOT ON THIS ISSUE.   The shipping manifest also contained information from Campbell himself, yet the manifest indicates that Campbell came over with Willie Chisholm, who went to work as the professional at Wollaston almost immediately after they arrived.  

Quote
As Tom MacWood points out, you couldn't possibly get a better source than the man himself.

More misrepresentations of  what TomMacWood wrote.  Tom MacWood is quite capable of speaking for himself, and you have proven that you are quite incapable of speaking for him.  So stop.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 12:30:00 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #218 on: February 01, 2011, 03:07:20 PM »
David,

There is no dispute about who Campbell came over here with.

I just don't understand why you would think Windeler didn't bring him over?   What possible reason would the author who obviously interviewed Alex Campbell in person have for saying that or even knowing in 1933 who Windeler was or his role at TCC?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #219 on: February 01, 2011, 03:33:25 PM »
The article was written almost four decades after the fact, and it didn't really get into, or purport to get into the exact detailed machinations of how Alex Campbell ended up at TCC in 1899.   A Campbell and Willie Chisholm listed the same contact, David Duncan Fletcher, on the shipping manifest, and were going to the same location in Boston (illegible but definitely not "Brookline" or "The Country Club.")  But as I said to TomM it doesnt really matter because we know he ended up at TCC before by June 1899.   


The more interesting issue is Willie Campbell and TCC.   That article from Golfer indicated that he laid out the 18 hole course, and the timing is right for him to have done so.   This would explain the reference to him being connected to TCC in 1899 as well his presence at the opening of the new TCC course. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #220 on: February 02, 2011, 10:11:38 AM »
From The Golfer, June 1898, my emphasis:

The new links [at Cambridge] will complete a trio of eighteen hole courses for this neighborhood.  The famous Country Club of Brookline has had a full course laid out by Willie Campbell, who also planned the course of the Cambridge Club, and the Myopia Hunt Club has taken steps to bring its links up to the standard number of holes.

David,

I think this article points out that Willie Campbell did in fact plan to expand TCC at some point, but the date and wording is very confusing.

For instance, it reads as if the eighteen hole course already exists, doesn't it, when it mentions that the course at Cambridge "will complete a trio of eighteen hole courses" in the Boston area?  

Also, if one accepts your definition and notion that courses were simply "laid out" on the ground in a single step, divorced from paper planning, then how could Campbell have already laid out the course if it never existed to that date?   Did he lay it out on land that the club didn't own yet?   Perhaps.

But even more confusing to me is the fact that it seems great pains were taken to actually lay out and develop the eighteen hole course that opened in 1899 because the land they purchased was heavily forested.   So, does this mean that WC simply placed stakes somewhere in the woods to indicate where the planned holes would go back in 1895 or so and then the club found these three or four years later and cut down the trees and removed the brush to unveil his work?  




DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #221 on: February 02, 2011, 10:44:17 AM »
Again Mike, When you like a source you run with it as far as you can, which is usually much farther than is reasonable.  When you don't like a source you will just write whatever you can think of to try and muddy it and discredit it. Your mentor must be so proud.

1.  Nothing confusing about the the wording.  According to the article, all three clubs - TCC, Myopia, and Cambridge - were in the process of building their eighteen hole courses.  Campbell was at the helm for two of these projects, the course at Cambridge and the expansion at TCC. 

2.  Your attempts to pretend this was about what happened in 1895 are off by three years.  This was June 1898.    As I said, TCC had already purchased the land!

3.  Your claims that he would have had to lay out the course before they bought it are ridiculous.  I already told you that according to Windeler, they bought the land earlier in the year, in January. 

4. Your speculation of them finding his old stakes in the trees is absolutely asinine and not worthy of comment, as is your continued disingenuous manipulation of the terminology to unnecessarily muddy the waters.

It is really kind of sad, Mike.   You obviously care about the subject matter; you obviously have infinite time to devote to it; and you have Joe Bausch at your service, which is a valuable asset.    Yet you waste our time and yours, insisting on following in the footsteps of your mentor with this partisan buffoonery. A waste.
 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #222 on: February 02, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
David,

I have no issue at all if Willie Campbell designed the original 18 hole course at Brookline and didn't quite understand the implications of the timing you mentioned.  

I also know Tom MacWood expressed some skepticism based on what he understands of events, so perhaps he can help clarify.

However, I do still think that article makes it sound as though once Cambridge is completed there will be three eighteen hole courses in the area, which is strange as TCC wouldn't open for another 16 months.



p.s.   Your mention of Joe Bausch as a shill for me and the source for all of my research really does a disservice to him here as he shares his research with EVERYONE here, and has stayed out of these attribution discussions and arguments, probably due to his own good sanity and objectivity.

I think you owe him a public apology, David.   Insult me all you like...I could care less, but he doesn't deserve your careless barrage.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 11:05:25 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #223 on: February 02, 2011, 11:18:37 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Although the land had been purchased the previous year, Myopia wasn't finished either and wouldn't be opened until fall. All three courses were in the works.  According to Windeler the expansion at TCC was problematic and took some time to complete.   I don't know exactly why it took so long aside from the difficulty of the site and the trees, but whatever the reason, it looks more and more like Willie Campbell had something to do with it, along with Windeler.   Given who Campbell was and his connections there, this makes some sense.     

Also, it may be worth mentioning that at some point Campbell's health took a distinct turn for the worse, and it is difficult to know when or how that impacted his work. 

Here is the article, The Golfer, May 1898.



________________________________

I did not insult Joe Bausch.    But having access to him and his research ought to be quite valuable, and it is a pity the way you misuse the fruits of his labors for your petty and hackneyed games.   That's no cut on Joe.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #224 on: February 02, 2011, 11:38:26 AM »
David,

You may be correct, I'm not sure.

It does get confusing, particularly given the aborted attempt to expand to eighteen holes a few year earlier as reported by TMac;

"But in 1895 so much enthusiasm was rampant that plans were made to buy the Baker estate and convert the nine into an eighteen-hole links. Early the following year a circular was issued asking that 200 members subscribe an amount not exceeding $20 each. The response was disappointing and nothing was done. However, the matter was not dropped and two years later, January 18, 1898, to be exact, the club appropriate $42,000 to buy land and construct the course. there was countless difficulties to be overcome, the land was woody and patience combined with hard work accomplished wonders and on October 7, 1899, the new eighteen-hole course was opened with a match between Alec Campbell and John Jones."

You in fact responded by mentioning 1895 and suggested that perhaps that is the timeframe that Campbell laid out the course so I wasn't the first to mention that here, David.   You said in response;

"What I find interesting is that according to Windeler's presentation (Anderson's source) the extension to 18 holes was originally contemplated in 1895, which was before Campbell split.   Is it possible that the plan for the additional holes was drawn up in 1895 by W Campbell?"

It was reported in March 1896 that Willie Campbell would not be rehired.    

I'm pretty sure the author of the Cambridge article was again George Sargent who played on the Harvard golf team at that time and the Cambridge course, and he earlier reported that the original nine hole course of The Country Club was laid out in 1893 by Wilie Campbell, so he could also be confusing an earlier 1895 effort to expand to eighteen to the more recent attempt in 1898-99...I'm not sure.

I'll be interested to hear Tom MacWood's take.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 11:40:12 AM by MCirba »

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