Massachusetts 1927

[wsmorrison]

Fair enough, Tom.  Let's give Hood undefined minor credit, for whatever that is worth.  I don't really understand your definitions, but I know I don't feel like arguing them.

It is not a stretch to say that Kittansett would not exist without Hood.  However, you should also include J. Lewis Stackpole, Galen L. Stone and H. Nelson Emmons, right?  It was their "baby" as well.

[Willie_Dow]

So, you historians, was it 1922 or 1923 ?

Welcome back Wayne.  Take our Salters house in the fall and clear the air !

[wsmorrison]

Kittansett was organized in 1922 and opened in 1923.   

I'd be glad to clear the air, Bill.

Looks like I just might be a Divotee, I think.

[TEPaul]

"TE
Have you ever heard of collaboration...its kind of awkward having three guys simultaneously drawing on a map. I believe Walter E. Johnson drew up every plan Ross did in the 20s and to my knowledge did not route a single hole. Give your Philly express a rest."


Tom MacWood:

What point are you trying to make now?

It would probably be safer all around if you just stopped constantly speculating about the architectural attribution of golf courses whose histories you don't know very well. Ross did have Walter Erving Johnston to draw formal plans for him. Flynn did his own and generally numerous itertions of them but you probably didn't know that.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I have five primary goals with this thread

1) To continue to prove Philadelphia golf history is a charade thru threads on Massachusetts, California, the Deep South and Europe

2) That you, Wayne and Mike are so paranoid you will attempt to hijack the most unassuming thread

3) To prove HH Barker was a remarkable genius

4) To continue to prove you are an idiot

5) Bring attention to Massachusetts golf architecture and hopefully learn something in the process

[wsmorrison]

Is it hijacking a thread to point out your inaccuracies?  Should we all just let you spout your nonsense and leave them uncorrected?  If your conclusions and ideas are left unchallenged, you will continue to undermine the credibility of golf research.  You are a dilettante.  Why don't you stick to mastering one or two subjects instead of dabbling and corrupting many?  I know you don't trust the research or opinions of those that do, but you don't trust anyone's opinion but your own uninformed ones and those of your protege.

Will you reconsider your 1927 attributions for The Country Club?  The design and aesthetics were significantly altered in a 1926 plan.

[Thomas MacWood]

Feel free to make any corrections or additions

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, ? A.Campbell, 1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1922 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

[wsmorrison]

On November 29, 1892 Laurence Curtis requested that a golf course be constructed for The Country Club.  Curtis, Arthur Hunnewell and Robert Bacon laid out the course in 1893.

Willie Campbell was hired in 1894 and made revisions to the golf course, I don't know what he did specifically.  This is the course routing as of 1898:



While we never did research the early history of TCC in depth, our interest was Flynn's work on the course just prior to his efforts, I am not familiar with any specific design work attributed to A. (Alec) Campbell.  However, the 1898 plan was significantly revised in the creation of the course immediately preceding Flynn's work.  Do you think that was done by A. Campbell and/or Windeler?

In 1926, Flynn planned a significant revision of the bunkers and greens on the existing 18 holes, a redesign of 4, 15 and 16 and the addition of 9 new holes.

Kittansett:  Flynn with possible assistance from Wilson and Hood.

By the way, Ross met with the trustees of the club prior to Flynn being hired. 

[TEPaul]

"TE
I have five primary goals with this thread

1) To continue to prove Philadelphia golf history is a charade thru threads on Massachusetts, California, the Deep South and Europe

2) That you, Wayne and Mike are so paranoid you will attempt to hijack the most unassuming thread

4) To continue to prove you are an idiot"




Tom MacWood:

I hardly think you need to list those primary goals as they've been pretty obvious to a lot of others on here for for close to five years now.

If this is the way you want to look like a good researcher and architecture analyst on here then that's your problem but it's easy to see it's pretty pathetic and as Wayne just said above it's a negative to architecture's history.

You always seem to promote comprehensive research in architecture and with Flynn and his courses, Kittansett, Merion etc, that's what we've done. If you want to challenge our research then by all means do that----eg that's a positive for this website if it's done positively and not always adverserially, but I don't believe  a primary goal of trying to show that Philadelphia golf history is a charade, that a few guys who do it comprehensively are paranoid or that I'm an idiot is a positive for this website. It's pretty negative actually.

But thanks anyway for stating your primary goals on here.

Again, they've been quite obvious for a few years.

[TEPaul]

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quote from: TEPaul on Yesterday at 02:09:28 pm
"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:
Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett." 



A response:
"The new logic:  Draftsman = Designer."


I'm not certain where that remark is coming from or what its implication is supposed to be particularly with the golf courses and the plans and drawings William Flynn did during his career. We believe we have all the plans and drawings of almost every golf course Flynn was involved with in his app. 30 year career and as far as we can tell he never acting as a only "draftsman" for some other designer or golf architect.


With Kittansett, I'd list the architectural attribution like this---Flynn/Hood/Wilson.

Up until about five years ago the attribution for Kittansett was pretty much Frederick Hood but in fairness to Kittansett they had never seen Flynn's plans for Kittansett and if they had at some point years ago they were not aware of them when we became involved with Kittansett (watching long-time superintendent, Lenny Blodgett, look over those Flynn plans slowly and carefully about 5-6 years ago one rainy morning is quite the interesting story). But Kittansett has seen them now and they have them now. Gil Hanse who did the restoration a few years ago was sorry he didn't have them during the restoration but he has them now. Had the club done some in-depth research into the design of the course they would have noticed some of the old newspaper articles explaining Flynn's part. Articles such as Boston's very good sportswriter of that time by the name of A. Linde Fowler, who described Kittansett as one of the new "scientific" designs from Philadelphia's Flynn (Wilson).

Frederick Hood was very much involved throughout the design and creation of Kittansett (he seems to be the primary "principle" as well as a day to day guy on-course overseeing construction perhaps something like Crump or Wilson---eg a "amateur/sportsman"). We believe many may've thought Hood designed the course too as it appears Hood may've hired his own local crews during construction.  The construction phase of Kittansett apparently ran into some unexpected obstacles such as the prevalence of rock underground. That alone may be the primary reason Kittansett is such as interesting example of a good deal of "above ground or above grade level" golf architecture.

[Thomas MacWood]

On November 29, 1892 Laurence Curtis requested that a golf course be constructed for The Country Club.  Curtis, Arthur Hunnewell and Robert Bacon laid out the course in 1893.

Willie Campbell was hired in 1894 and made revisions to the golf course, I don't know what he did specifically.  This is the course routing as of 1898:

While we never did research the early history of TCC in depth, our interest was Flynn's work on the course just prior to his efforts, I am not familiar with any specific design work attributed to A. (Alec) Campbell.  However, the 1898 plan was significantly revised in the creation of the course immediately preceding Flynn's work.  Do you think that was done by A. Campbell and/or Windeler?

In 1926, Flynn planned a significant revision of the bunkers and greens on the existing 18 holes, a redesign of 4, 15 and 16 and the addition of 9 new holes.

Kittansett:  Flynn with possible assistance from Wilson and Hood.

By the way, Ross met with the trustees of the club prior to Flynn being hired. 

Wayne
W. Campbell converted a six-hole course into a proper 9-hole course. In 1898 the course was expanded to 18. I'm not certain who did what in 1898. A.Campbell was the pro and Windeler was secretary of golf committee that also included GE Cabot and SH Fessenden. I suspect it was a collaboration. After Horace Hutchinson's visit in 1910 (with Macdonald), and his critique of the course, Windeler proceeded with a major redesign from 1910 to 1913. Colt was engaged in 1914, but he only made one relatively minor change.

As Hood is to Kittansett and Leeds is to Myopia, Windeler is to Brookline.

Why did George Thomas list Kittansett Wilson, Flynn, Hood?

[Brad Tufts]

Tedesco!  Wogan (about 1920), Stiles rev. (1927ish).

[Willie_Dow]

Tom

Maybe Thomas liked the third hole.  He pictured it in the book "Captain", listing the designer as Wilson.  I don't think Flynn had a drawing of that hole.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Maybe Thomas liked the third hole.  He pictured it in the book "Captain", listing the designer as Wilson.  I don't think Flynn had a drawing of that hole."


Bill:

We do know Hugh Wilson went to Kittansett for two days at least. As far as no Flynn drawing for that hole, we think Flynn must have done drawings for all eighteen holes, it was just a matter of not all of them being in the box of all his course drawings when it was found in the barn in Bucks County about 5-6 years ago.

That was also right around the time Wilson and Flynn were apparently thinking of going into partnership. Apparently health reasons kept that from happening.

As far as Thomas listing Wilson with Kittansett (the caption under the photo of #3 in his book), I'd tend to put a lot of stock in what Thomas said as this was also a time when Thomas (then in California) said he was leaning on Wilson for all kinds of advice on architecture (agronomy?). Thomas mentioned in his book he considered Hugh Wilson as one of very best architects, amateur or professional.

[Thomas MacWood]

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1922 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Tom,

1903 is only when Tedesco was incorporated, the course was member-designed and on 6 seaside holes that are now houses.  I think the original course on our current site was designed by both members and Skip Wogan as it was formalized around 1910-1920.  Wayne Stiles came in the late 20s to build a new 9 (that would make 36 total), and this 9 was in play for only 6 years, 1930-1936.  A couple of these holes exist on the current 18, and Stiles also made changes/improvements to the course that existed at the time.

[Thomas MacWood]

Brad
I found several old articles in the Boston Globe. There was a golf course that predates the current course at a different site. From 1900 to 1903 the club was located at Phillips Beach. In 1903 they moved to the present site and laid out a nine hole course - designer unknown. In 1912 a new nine was laid out by Donald Ross. The article gives the impression he remodeled the old nine too. I have not been able to find any reference to Wogan through 1925. It appears the club had 36 holes in 1930. Do you know what year Wogan or Stiles may have been involved?

I also found an article from 1899 that gives credit to Windeler for the new nine at Brookline.

[TEPaul]

"As Hood is to Kittansett and Leeds is to Myopia, Windeler is to Brookline."


It seems to me that all three of those men and what they did for their respective courses should be looked at differently because they seem to be quite different, at least if those courses are looked at in anything of an evolutionary way while those men were part of those clubs.

Hood was very central to the development of Kittanset but it does not look like he was central to the actual design of the course. For that he seems to have hired and depended on professional architect William Flynn (perhaps with "amateur/sportsman" Hugh Wilson). Flynn's plans as compared to the way the course was built and even is today bears that out.

Leeds, when he got involved with Myopia (after the first course iteration) did not involve another architect either. Leeds himself was pretty much responsibile for the 1900-1903 iteration of the course which is remarkably similar to the way it is now.

Herbert Windeler, apparently had a good deal to do with TCC early on but that club also involved the design work and ideas of professionals while Windeler was there unlike Myopia, for instance, or Oakmont or NGLA or even Merion while Wilson was alive (other than Flynn of course).

Windeler's contributions to golf in America as far as what he had to do with golf organiztation and administration is probably his greater legacy---eg president of the USGA and one of the formers and creators of the Massachussets Golf Association.

To do Leeds, Hood and Windeler justice historically they should not be lumped together as having just similar influences on their courses mentioned.

[Thomas MacWood]

Leeds, when he got involved with Myopia (after the first course iteration) did not involve another architect either. Leeds himself was pretty much responsibile for the 1900-1903 iteration of the course which is remarkably similar to the way it is now.

Could you explain what you mean by the first course iteration and the 1900-1903 iteration? Did Leeds change the routing he inherited?

[DMoriarty]

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quote from: TEPaul on Yesterday at 02:09:28 pm
"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:
Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett." 



A response:
"The new logic:  Draftsman = Designer."


I'm not certain where that remark is coming from or what its implication is supposed to be particularly with the golf courses and the plans and drawings William Flynn did during his career. We believe we have all the plans and drawings of almost every golf course Flynn was involved with in his app. 30 year career and as far as we can tell he never acting as a only "draftsman" for some other designer or golf architect.

The remark comes from your comment to Mr. Dow, and you confirmed its accuracy above.  You guys think that if Flynn drew it, he deserves design credit.   I do not get the logic behind this at all. 

You state that Flynn "never acted as a draftsman for some other designer or golf architect."  Of course he did.   In 1916, multiple publications credit Flynn for hole by hole drawings of Merion and/or drawings of the entire course.  Surely he wasn't the designer at this time, was he?   

And intermittently thereafter, Flynn produced drawings of Merion in various degrees of detail. While Flynn may have been responsible for a small percentage of what appears in these drawings, he surely was not responsible for the bulk of it.

Any time a designer is tweaking the work of others, one would assume their drawings would incorporate quite a bit of the original work, wouldn't one? 

So if Flynn rebuilt bunkers and/or greens on some course, and in the process he drew the holes on which he is doing the work, you are not crediting him with design of that course, are you? ? ?  Apparently you are. 

Hood was very central to the development of Kittanset but it does not look like he was central to the actual design of the course. For that he seems to have hired and depended on professional architect William Flynn (perhaps with "amateur/sportsman" Hugh Wilson). Flynn's plans as compared to the way the course was built and even is today bears that out.

Surely there is more than this?   What if Hood, Flynn, and Wilson spent two days walking around, deciding what to do, and then Flynn drew it up?     

Flynn's plans match the present course?   So what?    Isn't the real question:  Who came up with the ideas as indicated in the plan?   Also, what was there before, prior to Flynn drawing up his plan?   In other words, what was Flynn's creative contribution to the design.

I have only seen a few of Flynn's plans.  Of these few, one is supposedly "Plan by William Flynn" and he is NOT the designer of the vast majority of what is shown on the plan.   Not even close. 

Bottom line:  It is NOT safe to assume that if Flynn drew it, he designed it.   Especially where he was renovating someone else's work.



A beautiful painting no doubt, but surely not a basis for giving Monet credit for designing the Cathedral. 

[David Stamm]

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quote from: TEPaul on Yesterday at 02:09:28 pm
"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:
Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett." 



A response:
"The new logic:  Draftsman = Designer."


I'm not certain where that remark is coming from or what its implication is supposed to be particularly with the golf courses and the plans and drawings William Flynn did during his career. We believe we have all the plans and drawings of almost every golf course Flynn was involved with in his app. 30 year career and as far as we can tell he never acting as a only "draftsman" for some other designer or golf architect.

 
Bottom line:  It is NOT safe to assume that if Flynn drew it, he designed it.   Especially where he was renovating someone else's work.

 

David, would this not depend on the extent of the renovation?

[wsmorrison]

Reply #44 is best ignored. 

[michael j fay]

Worcester US Open 1925, Ryder Cup 1927
Brae Burn US Open 1919, US AM 1929

[DMoriarty]

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quote from: TEPaul on Yesterday at 02:09:28 pm
"My far and away favorite is Kittansett, 1923, Fred Hood, with routing by William Flynn."

Bill:
Unless Frederick Hood basically showed Flynn how to draw every hole at Kittansett I think Flynn both routed and designed Kittansett." 



A response:
"The new logic:  Draftsman = Designer."


I'm not certain where that remark is coming from or what its implication is supposed to be particularly with the golf courses and the plans and drawings William Flynn did during his career. We believe we have all the plans and drawings of almost every golf course Flynn was involved with in his app. 30 year career and as far as we can tell he never acting as a only "draftsman" for some other designer or golf architect.

 
Bottom line:  It is NOT safe to assume that if Flynn drew it, he designed it.   Especially where he was renovating someone else's work.

 

David, would this not depend on the extent of the renovation?

Yes.  It is a great question how to make that determination and worthy of a thread of its own, but I am not trying to draw this line.   I am offering no opinion on what credit Flynn deserves or does not deserve for the various courses he touched over the years.   

My point is purely procedural:   How can we, looking back, determine a designer's creative contribution to a design?   According to Tom Paul, he and Wayne have determined that if Flynn drew up a plan, then Flynn deserves credit for the design.    By itself, this would be an incredibly ineffective way accurately determine Flynn's creative contribution.   

Remember, this was a period of collaboration.  It was also a transitional period before all designers drafted detailed plans of their work.   According to TEPaul, it was also an age of the amateur/sportsman where the powerful men in the club wanted to be involved in the process.   It was also an age where quite a bit of the work was renovation work on a previously existing course.  All these could easily lead to situations where the one doing the drawing was not necessarily the only one creatively contributing to the design. 

Think Billy Bell and Thomas.   Bell was a designer on his own without Thomas, but still it would be a shame to cut out Thomas when Bell did  the drafting.  Think Macdonald and Raynor, early.  Think any situation where anyone other than the person drafting the plans is doing a large share of the designing.

[DMoriarty]

Reply #44 is best ignored.  This guy poses as an expert on William Flynn and would have everyone grant him authority on the subject.  These dilettantes would be laughable except that they actually believe what they say.

Wayne,

The only point of your post is to warn others off; to stifling discussion; and to self-importantly cast aspersions without any basis whatsoever.  Who are you to tell anyone what they should and should not consider?   Are the readers imbeciles who cannot think for themselves? 

If I have it wrong, then it ought to be easy enough for an expert like you to substantively expose my ineptitude.   Calling me names is not a substantive point.  Trying to control what others consider isn't, either.   It is empty rhetoric. 

I can squeeze out a drop of substance from your post, but even this drop of nectar is bitter with falsehoods.

-- I do not claim to be an expert on William Flynn.  I know very little about him.   I'd like to know more though, and have my pre-order in at Borders for your book.   Paperback I hope.   

Unlike you, I explained the basis for my substantive point in my post.  No use repeating it here.  All I have to go by is what TEPaul wrote.  He apparently has a simple and somewhat nonsensical approach to determining design attribution which is based on a false premise.   I would hope that TEPaul has it all wrong. But given how you guard your top-secret Flynn Manifesto, and given how you refuse to offer any substance to back up your public claims, I will have to go with what TEPaul writes.   At least the parts I read.