[Travis Dewire]

Dean M,

Holmes is great, if you like a snooze fest. Keuroc is great, if you want to think

IMO, i do not want to say such a thing about a great writer, but you get my point

[Travis Dewire]

According to the club's records, the course opened for play on May 12th, of 1987. On May 29th, the Agreement of Association was approved by the Commissioner of Corporations, recorded at the Massachusetts State House, on May 29th, 1897. It is highly unlikely that Brae Burn went almost exactly 2 years, before you claim, we had our opening day (5-13-1899).

The opening day was not May 13th, 1899. The course was laid out in the Spring, of 1897, by George H. Phelps, the club's first President. The course was then lengthened 700 yards by Phelps, in 1898. It does not say however that the distance was added in the Spring of the Fall. If added at the end of the season, then I understand why your article claims a new course opening, refering to the changes made. The only other plausible explanation is that the article you have found is being wrongly dated. The dates in May are pretty much right on, and a 9 being read instead of a 7, is possible, for whoever digitalized the article. What is the source of your article?

The club records cite Alex Ross, Donald's brother, as head professional at about the turn of the century. I would guess that Mr. McCormick, was the first club professional. I am a little bit upset that record of him has not been noted by the club. Alex is the first head professional listed, 1902 to 1914. But it does seem that the four person match, was a match of professionals, listing their respective clubs.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

You'd think after I mentioned that Alex Campell wasn't even there when they expanded the course to 18 holes that you would have bothered to look through the rest of the book.  But no.   You just stick to your guns, truth be damned.

Do you just quit reading when you get to a part you can twist to fit the point you want to make?  Read the rest of the damn book, for goodness sake!

Page 168: TCC bought the land in April of 1898, and the 18 holes opened in October 1899.  Page 303: Alex Campbell began as a professional at TCC in 1900.  So, yes, "Nipper" was "pressed into service as a course designer."  But according to the book this happened beginning around 1903 when the club was changing and extending the course in reaction to the Haskell ball.  Again, page Page 168.  

Lots of changes were made during Alex Campbell's 16 year tenure (1900-1915), but should I really have to point out that these don't include those made before his tenure began? - David Moriarty


David,

You really should double-check your work and not just believe everything you read at face value.   I think your compadre tried to warn you that the book is wrong in that date, but you insisted on insulting me again anyway.

Nice.

Aleck (Nipper) Campbell was brought over as a gifted player, a popular teacher, and was a disciple of Willie Fernie at Troon.   Windeler and his committee would assuredly have used his knowledge of the game abroad in laying out nine new holes during 1899, and Campbell was there from at least spring of that year, if not the year before...it's worded "last spring" in September 1899 below.

April 3rd, 1899




September 15th, 1899

[Mike Cirba]

Per Tom MacWood, here are the drawings of the 1893 Members-laid-out course at Brookline, followed by the 1894 version laid out by Willie Campbell.

I've tipped them on their side in the N/S orientation the course is normally presented.   I'm trying to find a drawing of the 1899 eighteen hole version to see how much of Campbell or the member's work was preserved.

In comparison with today's course, which is similar to the one that was played in 1910 US Amateur and 1913 US Open, it does appear that today's 7th hole goes back to the 1894 Campbell course.

[Tom MacWood]

I've never thought Willie Campbell was involved in the design/redesign of Brae Burn, though I have to admit him playing at the opening is curious. It certainly is plausible. The interesting thing about the article it says he is connected to The Country Club. He hadn't been connected to Brookline since 1895.

According to the December 1903 issue of Golf magazine the newly constructed 18-hole course (they actually added a new nine) at Brae Burn was scheduled to open in the spring of 1904. It was still nine hole course in 1902 and 1903.

If there is anything we have learned over the last couple of years, club histories are highly fallible.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Two questions, how do you know the article on Mrs. Campbell appeared in other newspapers, and are you sure Alex Campbell was a disciple of Willie Fernie?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I found the same article in other newspapers.   I just didn't do all the cutting, pasting, and posting to the Internet because some of the search functions make that very difficult, as I'm sure you are aware, and I knew Joe had already posted it here.   The other paper's article did have different pictures associated with it though...not sure if Joe just clipped his off in the interest of room.

I have a 1901 article where a club Campbell is using that came from Fernie is all the rage at TCC.

***EDIT*** Here's the article, Tom.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
What other newspapers did the Mrs. Campbell article appear in?

The article you posted did not state Campbell was a disciple of Fernie. Are you sure about that?

[Travis Dewire]

Tom,

Agreed on the date. I went back to found where I knew it said, construction was completed in 1903 - this would be the end of the season 03, with the course opening in the spring of 04 - that makes sense.

Please post or e-mail me a link or copy of the issue of Golf Magazine, so I can make the records straight.

Additionaly, i would like to point out, that Willie Campbell did not play at Brae Burn's opening day. Unless this article, is correctly dated, 1897, and not 1899, then I would agree Campbell played the opening day. It was you Tom, who pointed out that Phelps, designed the original 9 hole course in 1897, and then added 700 yards in 1898. How could there have been a second opening day, two years after the course was built? And there is no "new" course, post Phelps 9 hole, and pre the 1904 18 hole. There is simply no record of anything along those lines, and no one is posting any evidence to say other wise.

i think who ever digitalized Moriarty's article, got the year wrong. The course in 1897 opened on May 12th, and this article speaks of Braeburn opening a permanent grounds, and holding an opening match, May 13th, 1899. That seems likely. And if the case, then Campbell did play at the opening day. This piece of evidence needs to be further investiged to claim Campbell played at Brae Burn's opening day.

[Tom MacWood]

Per Tom MacWood, here are the drawings of the 1893 Members-laid-out course at Brookline, followed by the 1894 version laid out by Willie Campbell.

I've tipped them on their side in the N/S orientation the course is normally presented.   I'm trying to find a drawing of the 1899 eighteen hole version to see how much of Campbell or the member's work was preserved.

In comparison with today's course, which is similar to the one that was played in 1910 US Amateur and 1913 US Open, it does appear that today's 7th hole goes back to the 1894 Campbell course.

The 1895 expanded course appears to have about 3 to 5 holes surviving today. Campbell's 7, 8, 9, 2 and 3. 116 years after the fact that is not bad.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If you can scan and email me the 1895 routing, I'd be happy to post it.

No agenda...it just might be fun to track and I'm trying to dig up something from the eighteen hole course of 1900 unless you have one handy.

Thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm pretty sure that young Aleck would have caught the attention of Willie Fernie, who was pro at Troon from 1887 through the time Campbell came to TCC.   (see page 2)

[Mike Cirba]

A bit more on Alec Campbell...notice the dates.

[Joe Bausch]

A bit more on Alec Campbell...notice the dates.

I'm noticing more the last part about being an expert in GCA.

:-)

[Mike Cirba]

Here's some more about the course at The Country Club from an 1899 article written by George H. Sargent.

The description of the "old course" at that time is not the most appealing.





The clubhouse looked pretty fine, though.




And, a bit about the status of Braeburn at that point.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Are you sure the Mrs. Campbell article was widely distributed?

Joe
Campbell designed several golf courses, mostly in Ohio. Moraine CC (1930) is a very good course, which has been on GolfWeek's top 100 for a number of years.

[Travis Dewire]

So that little blurb on BraeBurn, discredits any 18 hole course, prior to the first one mentioned in their history, in 1904. The article written in 1899, by Mr. George Sargent, clearly says that Brae Burn was a 9 hole course at this time.

Really cool the arthor is from the Sargent family

[Travis Dewire]

Again, with a course being listed by Sargent here as a 9 hole course, in 1899, lends itself to the fact that, the course existed for atleast one year prior to the articles publication. The piece is too "all knowing", and is actually written by someone who a) had played the course, b) had friends that were members, or c) had relatives that were members, or d) he could have been a member.

No Willie Campbell playing at opening day, as the course was already in existence when he came to play. Again, the only explanation is the date on your article, is actually 1897. Otherwise, Willie came for an exhibition, just as did Vardon. It is quite the jump to say he played our opening day.

President Taft, hit the innagural tee shot at Worcester CC's opening of their 18 hole course, built by Ross. There are pictures galore and this is well documented through out the club. I don't think the records of our opening match would have recieved the opposite attention, to that of Worcester's.

[Mike Cirba]

Funny, I thought all that great information on Alex Campbell would elicit more discussion.   Talk about someone whose contributions are completely ignored and unknown in modern tiimes!  

Oh well...I guess if we've already proven we don't really know when he arrived in this country we can't pretend to be expert about him, now can we?  

Tom MacWood,

Do you really think that WC's expanded nine's holes 7,8,9, 2 & 3 exist to this day?   Wouldn't you say that's a pretty liberal interpretation?

Do you have a drawing of the changes he made in 1895?  As mentioned, I'd be happy to post it here.

Failing that, could you describe what changes he made to his 1894 course, particularly as relates to those holes you believe still exist in today's iteration?   Thanks.

[Chris Hans]

VESPER VESPER VESPER

[Travis Dewire]

Hans,

Andrew Conway still kickin it around there???

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

1.  As for your comments to me about your misinterpretation of the de St. Jorre book, if you have a problem with his dates, take it up with him.   My objection was to the way you twisted the contents of the book to try and establish that 'Nipper' was responsible for laying out the new holes in 1898-1899.  It doesn't say that, and your reliance on the book to try to establish that point was and is disingenuous.  

2.  Is it really so hard to properly source the articles you post? Because not doing so is Bush League.  Surely when Joe supplies these articles to you, he gives you the paper and dates? Yet again and again you post articles without the date and/or source, especially when the date and source may call whatever your point into question question.  Are you ever going to stop playing games here?

3.  For example, it must have finally dawned on you that you can't credit A. Campbell with expanding Brookline's course in 1898-1899 if he wasn't even here, so you posted an article indicating that he was the professional at TCC in 1896, and you even call our attention to this obviously erroneous date.  You didn't bother to mention that this article was written around 1945 almost a half century after the dates in question.   Bush League.

4.  You know that there are no contemporaneous references to A.Campbell acting as the professional in 1896, and you know that this is a highly suspect claim.   Campbell would have been around 16 years old at the time!  Yet you pass it off as if you have somehow proven your point.   I've got news for you, Mike.   Intentionally muddying the waters with obviously mistaken source material may prove a point about you, but not about what happened at Brookline.  

5.  Along the same lines, I notice on the other thread that you are still claiming Myopia's original course as 2025 yards, based on something written but not sourced or verified 70+ years later.  Here you post (but don't properly attribute) an article from April 3, 1899 about the Country Club.  The same article appeared in the Globe on April 2, 1899, and contained the following about MYOPIA:    "Nine holes were laid out in 1894, with a total length of 2970 yards."   Typical.  You just ignore  that which doesn't support your position, and continue on in that other thread as if the May distances must be accepted as gospel.   Bush League.  

Funny, I thought all that great information on Alex Campbell would elicit more discussion.   Talk about someone whose contributions are completely ignored and unknown in modern tiimes!

Do you think we should jump to attention each time you stumble into discovering that there was more to early American course design than Hugh Wilson and his buddies?  If so, think again.  

Oh well...I guess if we've already proven we don't really know when he arrived in this country we can't pretend to be expert about him, now can we?

And how exactly have you proven this?   A single article, improperly attributed, written almost a half century later?  Bush League.  

[DMoriarty]

Travis,  

I double checked the date on the "New Links Opened" article and it was definitely 1899.  As I think I noted above, the article didn't say one way or another whether the course was nine or 18 holes.   I don't disagree with you about the course having been only nine holes.  I haven't seen anything indicating that it was 18 holes.    

The questions still remain about why this article called it a "New Links" though, and why it was billed as "an important event in the history of Braeburn Golf Club" and the opening?   I've looked into it a bit more, and while I have some ideas, I am not not certain what was going on.  It sounds like they had done some work on the course that year or the fall before, and that for some reason they were celebrating it as a "New Links" almost as if it was a 'coming out' party of sorts.   I haven't figured out was whether this was only because of an effort to improve playing conditions, or whether there were actual substantive changes.  

Anyway, I have found a number of articles which might be of interest to you and possibly others, and I will post them when I get the chance.  Given that you obviously know much more about the place than I do, you may be able to make more sense of them.    

[DMoriarty]

TomM,

So far as I can tell, A. Campbell first came to Boston from Scotland on April 1st, 1899.  His occupation listed as "golfer."  You mentioned that Windeler may have brought him over, but I have found nothing indicating that he was brought over by Windeler, the Country Club or anyone at the the Country Club.   

Rather, he seems to have been brought over David Duncan Fletcher, a bookkeeper who was also a reporter, a writer, and the publisher of a weekly newspaper called "The Anglo American."  Fletcher sounds like a colorful fellow who was very into all things Scottish.  He was reportedly a avid yet so-so golfer who published at least one article on St. Andrews, wrote a number of songs, poems, and toasts about things Scottish, including a poem called "My Golfing Girl," and was the subject of at least one published humorous golf anecdote.   I have been unable to find any connection between Fletcher and the Country Club, and he doesn't seem to have been in the right social status for the North Shore set.  Perhaps he was a member of some lesser club or group, maybe even a Franklin Park player, or perhaps his interest in bringing over Campbell was more related to money matches or the equipment trade.

So it is not entirely clear to me how Campbell hooked up with the Country Club, but the fact that he was a mind-numbingly good golfer probably had something to do with it.  The first mention I've thus far seen referencing Campbell at the Country Club was June of 1899. It is not at all clear what his duties were there, all that is clear is that he was playing matches as their representative.  He was around 19 years old at the time, and was reportedly a good friend of the older Willie Campbell, even serving as pallbearer at his funeral the next year.   

I have yet to see anything indicating that Alexander Campbell was responsible for the extension of the Country Club course to 18 holes in 1898-1899.   Give that it was reported that new holes had already been laid out in the May 1899 Outing Magazine, it seems extremely unlikely.

I still wonder about whether W.Campbell had any involvement with the expansion at TCC.  I saw a reference to a exhibition at TCC between two professionals (A. Campbell and Lloyd or Jones, I think) in Oct. 1899, and W.Campbell was present, but I am not sure if this was in conjunction with the opening or not.   (I don’t have the reference handy, but will try to find it later.)

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Trying to appear expert at everything is not the same as being so, as you've vividly illustrated in your last few posts.

You were wrong about Alex Campbell but it's evidently easier for you to type out another lengthy insult-spewing diatribe than just admit it and move on.  

The September 15, 1899 article I posted in #177 mentions he has been in the states since "last spring", brought over from Troon.   Herb Windeler was responsible for bringing him here.   Maybe spending more time reading and less time posing and rock hurling will help.

You tell us Willie Campbell laid out Myopia sometime after the middle of May 1894 and it was open within just a few days, yet then say it's "extremely unlikely" that Alex Campbell had anything to do with the expansion of TCC since he arrived April 1st 1899 and the course was reportedly planned by May.  (It opened that October).   You also told us that back then courses were laid out 'on the ground' and then opened for play a few days later.   Which is it?   Why the double standard yet again?  

You also told us Willie Campbell was highly qualified to design courses because of his expertise in playing the game, yet won't give Alex Campbell that same cred while at the same time apparently now just learning that he was a "mind-numbingly good golfer"??

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that your mistake seemingly caused you to spend your entire weekend boning up on Alex Campbell, but then please don't try to act knowledegable about him or worse yet, pompously pretend that you're educating all of us about him while you're obviously learning about him yourself on the fly.

We all make mistakes.   Get over yourself.

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