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Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #150 on: January 28, 2011, 06:41:31 AM »
Tom,

How much of Campbell's nine is retained in today's course? 

Again, I'd be happy to post the 3 iterations if you email to me.  Thanks.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #151 on: January 28, 2011, 06:55:47 AM »
Mike
It looks like there were five holes incorporated from the extended 9 in 1895 into Windeler's final version, and two or three partials. That is pretty impressive IMO. I don't know about the current course. I'll see if I can find a map of today's real 18 as opposed to the US Open 18 or Flynn's nine. And speaking of Windeler, I've been researching him for years and I believe he may be one of the most overlooked important figures in American golf architecture history (through his connection with Carters, not Brookline). Its kind of funny you are now singing his praises as way to under mind me (and Willie Campbell). Your agendas often get in the way of your looking at history objectively.

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2011, 07:14:17 AM »
Our agreement on Windeler's "Missing" role in modern times overlooks the fact that it was articles like the widely-distributed, syndicated 1902 one on Mrs. Campbell that is probably responsible for that modern oversight.

I never said that you did not credit Windeler.   I said that almost every summarized account in modern times I read of the origin of TCC reads something like, (Willie Campbell 1893, William Flynn 1927).   I don't believe I've ever seen Windeler's name in print in a modern major magazine, ever.

That article was hugely erroneous and to call Brookline and Myopia as they stood in 1902 Willie Campbell courses is almost as egregious a sentimental, erroneous oversimplifcation as HJ Whigham calling the 1938 Merion course a "Macdonald/Raynor" course.   Wouldn't you agree?

Again...I'll be happy to post the drawings for you here if you'd like...thanks
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 07:28:38 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #153 on: January 28, 2011, 09:50:28 AM »
Mike
The 1902 article was written about Mrs. Campbell, and gave a little background about her husband. Evenything in the artilce appears to be accurate; Campbell did layout the courses at Brookline and Myopia, and did teach the members at both clubs, and was largely responsible for the game taking off in Boston. This article was not written to explore the architural attributions of TCC up though 1902.

Your theory that this 1902 article appearing in a Minnesota newspaper is responsible for some huge misconception is frankly bizzarre. Firstly, Myopia does not even recognize Campbell, so they must have missed this 'widely distributed' article. Second, Brooline's hsitory is one of the more thoroughly documented in golf, and they have always recognized Campbell's contribution, as well as a host of others, including Windeler. And this particular article is obviously not their source.

You seem to be grasping for straws.

PS: I sent the maps to you about 3 hours ago.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:58:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #154 on: January 28, 2011, 10:01:24 AM »
I added Joe Lloyd to the Essex attribution.

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1896 J. Lloyd, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1921 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Hatch/Ross

Berkshire Hunt - 1926 Stiles

Oak Hill - 1920 Stiles, 1927 Ross

Lester George

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #155 on: January 28, 2011, 11:03:18 AM »
Tom Paul,

You are wasting your time on this thread.  He is obviuosly not going to provide what you want. 

Lester

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #156 on: January 28, 2011, 11:11:49 AM »
Tom,

I got your email and responded this morning...I'll post the images tonite. 

Thanks.

Any images available of the 1899 eighteen hole layout?

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #157 on: January 28, 2011, 11:33:56 AM »
Tom,

I think Brae Burn should be listed as 1902. This was the club's first 18 hole course, and atleast 6 holes remained in Ross's routing from 1912. There is also speculation that Alex Findlay did design a course at BB. Whether this is the 9 hole course from 1897, or 18 hole course from 1902, or if he was there at all, is still up in the air.

I really enjoy this thread you have started. In 1928 The U.S Am was hosted at Brae Burn. Ray Gorton took Bobby Jones to the 19th hole in the first round, eventually losing with a bogey. Jones went on to win the rest of his matches with relative ease. When Ross came again in 28 to work on the course for the upcoming tournament, he added a new tee on the 18th hole. See below. The tee box is about 10 feet above the member's tee box, and is a good deal further back. You can actually see the little blue marker about half way up the right hand side of the tee box. Since Jones was the champion of the tournament, the tee has been coined "The Jones Tee" for subsequent years. The hole plays about 460 from this tee, uphill to the clubhouse. There is also a creek at around 230 yards out, and there have been people known to lay up of it.

/Users/travisdewire/Desktop/burn pics/4542_1088732467060_1488900210_30305946_7752300_n.jpg


 

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #158 on: January 28, 2011, 01:28:56 PM »
Who designed the 1902 course, and was it nine or eighteen? Findlay? Some reports in 1903 still have the course as nine, but with plans of expanding.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:30:58 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #159 on: January 28, 2011, 01:52:26 PM »
Lester George,

This thread is from a few years ago.  Since then Tom MacWood has brought forward significant information refuting TEPaul's version of what happened at Myopia.
___________________________________________________

TomM

In The Story of Golf at The Country Club, author John de St. Jorre was unclear about who was actually responsible for expanding the TCC course to 18 holes in the late 1890s.    "It is not clear what role [Windeler's Golf Committee] had in the conception of the new layout, but given the past committee's involvement, it is safe to assume that these members were active participants."

He also implies (without directly saying so) that Campbell's replacement, Walter Stoddard, might have had something to do with it.  

His reason for thinking Willie Campbell was not involved was because Campbell had moved on to Franklin Park.    But this seems an odd justification for dismissing the possibility of Campbell's involvement to me.  Is it certain that Campbell was not involved in expanding the course to 18 holes?  

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #160 on: January 28, 2011, 02:11:08 PM »
David
I believe I have something about the 1898 expansion. I'll see if I can dig it up later.

Travis
I found a report from December 1903 that the 18 hole course at Brae Burn would be ready in 1904, no mention of the architect. The golf course guide of 1900 lists George H. Phelps as the architect of the 1897 nine hole course.

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #161 on: January 28, 2011, 02:30:03 PM »
Tom,

I have not seen the club guide from 1900 with Phelps giving credit with the original 9 hole course in 1897. The club also makes no mention of this in their history. But I believe it. Phelps was elected first club President, from 1897-1900, and was a key figure in early membership.

I have not procurred the records of Findlay, designing any work at BB. I have contacted the gentleman who has been making the club. Club records show no evidence of Findlay, and he receives no mention.

The club's history states that their first 18 holes course was used from 1902 untill 1912, when Ross came for his first redesign. Now, whether or not your report is right, I can not say. The club does not speculate beyond the course being used in 1902, in its history.

The 18 hole course had to have been ready by 1906, and 18 holes, regardless. That year the club hosted the Women's Am, won by Harriot Curtis, condoner of the Curtis Cup. At the very latest, you can credit Brae Burn with being an 18 course in 1906.

Again, I am trying to furnish the evidence that Alex Findlay's grandson claims he has, that Findlay did work at BB. It is my speculation that he designed the first 18 hole course, using a few of the existing holes, routed by Phelps (as you say). In 1900, Harry Vardon played an exhibition match at Brae Burn (on the original 9 hole course), during his exhibition tours sponsered by Findlay. This could very easily have been where Findlay was introduced to Brae Burn, and asked to return a few years later


Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #162 on: January 28, 2011, 02:32:29 PM »
Could you also post any link, or attachment, or whatever file it may be, of the golf guide of 1900, crediting Phelps with the 9 hole design. Our present day 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 16th, all have the original routing of that 9 hole course. Phelps was the club's first president, but he receives no recognition by the club for designing the first lay out. This would be an extreme injustice to Mr. Phelp's legacy at the club, and it would be great to include this in our documented history.

Thank you, Tom!

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #163 on: January 28, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »
David,

You missed the part where he credits Alex Campbell.

Should I type that sentence or would you prefer to correct your accidental omission?  Thanks.

Lester George

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #164 on: January 28, 2011, 04:12:06 PM »
DMoriarity,

Thanks for setting me straight. 

Lester

DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2011, 04:16:48 PM »
According to the Boston Globe (5-14-1899) "Braeburn" opened their "permanent links" on May 14, 1899.  Perhaps before then they were playing on leased property?     The article doesn't say whether the course was nine or 18 holes.  




_________________________________________________________________________________________

David,

You missed the part where he credits Alex Campbell.

Should I type that sentence or would you prefer to correct your accidental omission?  Thanks.

Yes Mike, I did miss that part, and I'd like you to point it out.    Because so far as I can see, de St. Jorre has Alex Campbell arriving at Brookline in 1900, which was after the links had been expanded to 18 holes.  

So go ahead and type that sentence correcting my "accidental omission."  Thanks.

--------------------------------------------------

ADDED

I forgot to mention the reason I noticed that article. It connects Campbell to TCC.  Strange, unless Campbell was doing some work there.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:10:12 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #166 on: January 28, 2011, 09:51:21 PM »
When I see your name I think of Dean Moriarity in Jack Keuroc's On The Road Again. Haha

Hmm....Interesting article you have posted. The club history contains zero evidence whatsoever to their being an 18 hole course in the year of 1899. The original 9 hole course is said to have been used untill 1902 when construction was started on a full 18.

I believe in that article you posted, it mentions, an "18 hole match between four professionals" - this does not mean it was played on an 18 hole course, because it was an 18 hole match. You could play an 18 hole match on a 3 hole course.

In the last paragraph it says, "On the eight hole of the first round Mr. Hartland lost his ball" - one should read this as they are playing a 9 hole course twice, as it would not be possible to play two rounds, in an 18 hole match, if playing an 18 hole course.

Below that, the players scores are listed for the first and second rounds. One should read this as, again these are the scores from each round that was played on the same 9 hole course, equating to an 18 hole match.

Again, in an earlier post it is noted that Harry Vardon played an exhibition match, in 1900, against Ben Nichols, on a 9 hole course at Brae Burn. This is factual evidence. It is not possible for Brae Burn to have been 18 holes in 1899, and then 9 a year later.

Brae Burn was in fact a 9 hole course in 1899, and all evidence points to that conclusion

Mike Cirba

Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #167 on: January 28, 2011, 09:58:26 PM »
"The stage was set for the further addition of holes when eighteen and a half acres, bounded by Clyde and Newton Streets, were purchased in April 1898, the clubs first acquisition since the purchase of the original 105 acres in 1896.  (During the first four years of the club's existence, the land had been leased).   The 1898 purchase allowed TCC to build an eighteen hole golf course, although Willie Campbell wasn't available to help, as he had left in 1896, moving to Franklin Park because of his interest in promoting golf to the public."

"The hiring of Campbell's successor, Walter F. Stoddard, was announced in an 1897 notice to members...Like Campbell, Stoddard also had a brief stay, 1897-1899.   Next was another Scot, and another Campbell, though no relation to Willie other than tribal.   This was Alexander "Nipper" Campbell, and as new terrain became available, he would be pressed into service as a course designer."

"It is not clear what part the Golf Committee, now consisting of George Cabot, G, Herbert Windeler...had in the conception of the new layout, but given the previous committee's involvement, it is safe to assume that these members were active participants.   The new eighteen hole golf course was officially opened in October, 1899."

 - The Story of Golf at The Country Club, _ John de St. Jorre.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #168 on: January 29, 2011, 12:07:40 AM »
The Country Club purchased the additional land that was used for the new nine in 1898. The full eighteen was opened in October 1899. GH Windeler was the man responsible for bringing Alex Campbell to the US in 1899. He was 19. I doubt AC was brought here because of his architectural experience and I doubt he had anything to do with design.

DMoriarty

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #169 on: January 29, 2011, 02:23:19 AM »
Travis, It says something about someone who goes with Kerouac's Moriarty over Conan Doyle's. I am not sure what though.

The article doesn't say one way or another, but from what you are saying it sure sounds like the course was only nine holes.   What I found interesting was the date, and the mention of "permanent course" which is often the language used when a club moved from leased land to purchased land.  Weren't you guys saying the nine hole course dated to 1897?   Could it be that there was a previous course, and that this was the second course?      

I am not sure if one can read anything into the fact that Campbell was playing at the opening, he could have been just collecting an appearance check, but it makes me wonder if he didn't have something to do with that course. This wasn't too long before he died, but he was still laying out courses.   In fact the day before the opening of your course, it was reported that Campbell had been in West Dennis, MA laying out nine holes at what was probably Blind River.  

“My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them.” --Kerouac's Diary (July 1947.)

_______________________________________________________

Mike Cirba,

You'd think after I mentioned that Alex Campell wasn't even there when they expanded the course to 18 holes that you would have bothered to look through the rest of the book.  But no.   You just stick to your guns, truth be damned.

Do you just quit reading when you get to a part you can twist to fit the point you want to make?  Read the rest of the damn book, for goodness sake!

Page 168: TCC bought the land in April of 1898, and the 18 holes opened in October 1899.  Page 303: Alex Campbell began as a professional at TCC in 1900.  So, yes, "Nipper" was "pressed into service as a course designer."  But according to the book this happened beginning around 1903 when the club was changing and extending the course in reaction to the Haskell ball.  Again, page Page 168.  

Lots of changes were made during Alex Campbell's 16 year tenure (1900-1915), but should I really have to point out that these don't include those made before his tenure began?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #170 on: January 29, 2011, 10:31:35 AM »
The 1899 Golf Guide lists Brae Burn as a nine hole course. Again it credits Geo. H. Phelps with laying the course in 1897, it also says in April of 1898 Mr. Phelps made great improvements by extending the course by 700 yards. Phelps was president of the club. The greenkeeper was David Hoar, perhaps a relative of Willie Hoar.

In the same guide it says The Country Club is nine holes at present, though an extension to eighteen is in the course of preparation. Herbert Wendeler is the secretary of golf. W. E. Stoddart is the greenkeeper. Wendeler was chairman of the golf committee from 1898 to 1917, and it is my impression he was calling all the shots during that time.

Windeler was an Englishman, who kept a residence in both London and Boston for many years. I do not believe he ever became an American citizen. He was one of the few presidents of the USGA who was not an American citizen. He was responsible for bringing over the Oxford & Cambridge GS for their 1904 exhibition. He was also the first president of Eastward Ho! I suspect he had something to do with engaging Fowler. Originally when Windeler came over he was involved in shipping, but through most of his professional life he was in insurance. He died in 1937.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #171 on: January 29, 2011, 10:38:57 AM »
David
I haven't found any evidence of this but I would not be surprised if Campbell and Stoddart overlapped for few months or longer. Its my impression Campbell was a club-making specialist. And I think it is more likely Windeler taught Campbell what he knew about golf architecture rather than the other way around.

Here is link to an article on Campbell from 1933. He is still remembered fondly at Morraine in Dayton, partially because of his notorious drinking habit.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1933/ag366k.pdf

Tom MacWood

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #172 on: January 29, 2011, 10:40:28 AM »
I modified the Brae Burn entry.

Brookline - 1894 W.Campbell, 1898 Windeler, 1911-1913 Windeler, 1927 Flynn

Essex County - 1894 W.Cambell, 1896 J. Lloyd, 1907 Willett/Caner/Dunn/Travis, 1911-1917 Ross

Salem - 1925 Ross

Charles River - 1921 Ross

Myopia Hunt - 1894 W.Campbell, ? Leeds

Brae Burn - 1897 Phelps, 1904 ?, 1912 Ross

Vesper - 1895 ?, 1899 Findlay, 1919 Ross

Belmont Springs - 1909 Ross

Winchester - 1902 Findlay, 1916 Ross

Oyster Harbors - 1927 Ross

Berkshire Hills - 1926 Tillinghast

Eastward Ho! - 1922 Fowler

Sankaty Head  - 1921 H. Emerson Armstrong

Longmeadow CC - 1921 Ross

Dedham Country and Polo - 1915 Ross, 1921 Fowler, 1923 Raynor

Kittansett - 1922 Wilson/Flynn/Hood

Taconic - 1896 ?, 1927 Stiles

Worcester - 1914 Ross

Thorny Lea - 1925 Stiles

CC of New Bedford - 1902 ?, 1923 Park

Tedesco - 1903 ?, 1912 Ross

The Orchard - 1922 Ross, 1927 Ross

Cedar Bank - 1927 QA Shaw

Woods Hole - 1898 ?, 1919 Winton, 1927 Stiles

Concord (9 holes) - 1913 Ross

Whitinsville (9 holes) - 1925 Hatch/Ross

Berkshire Hunt - 1926 Stiles

Oak Hill - 1920 Stiles, 1927 Ross

[/quote]

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #173 on: January 29, 2011, 11:02:05 AM »
No, Campbell did not do anything to the course. West Newton and Brookline are rather close, with similar membership at that time. It is very plausible he came to simply, play an exhibition match. Wasn't he a working pro?

There was only one 9 hole lay out, used from 1897, untill 1902/03.

The original six hole course, used approx. 1893-1895, played across Commonwealth Ave, on two occasions, with the other holes lying beside it. Yes the carriages would be going by with golf balls sailing over. The grounds used were their own properties. John Pushee, Henry B. Day's, are two that are named.

In 1895, a year after the formation of the USGA, these gentleman began organizing what would become known as Brae Burn. In April of 1897, the club began constructing, "a very simple nine-hole "links" on part of the land we now own adjacent to Fuller Street" (Brae Burn 50 year anniversary, and Brae Burn Centennial book), which was ready in May of that year. I imagine this would be the Phelps lay out.

The plot of land referred to above, is the Bacon land, originally owned by William F. Bacon. This land provided just about all of the land needed for the 9 hole course. It was leased by the club from Mr. Bacon in 1897, and purchased the land outright in 1911, with some additional land that the club had been using at that time. Mr. Bacon's son, William H., is listed as a full member in the 1936 Directory.

I would guess that the news article says "permanent links", due to the fact that only two years prior, had Brae Burn changed from a loose organization of sporting gentleman playing a lawn game, to a fully organized and established club, now with a permanent home for theirs and their futures enjoyment

Travis Dewire

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Re: Massachusetts 1927
« Reply #174 on: January 29, 2011, 11:06:53 AM »
Tom,

All club records list the first 18 hole course, being used from 1902-1912. Ross also did a redesign in 1928, and added a handful of TOTALLY NEW holes. I think it should be noted that he did return and did make serious changes to the 1912 course listed.

It has been awhile since I was in contact with Alex Findlay's grandson, the one who lays claim to Findlay doing work at Brae Burn. I will try to be in touch with him to get some answers

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