News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Cirba

To replicate or not to replicate
« on: July 05, 2002, 08:47:20 PM »
Last year, golf architect Stephen Kay (along with Ron Whitten) designed The Architects Golf Club in New Jersey, with each hole copying the style of various architects through history.  Generally, despite some weaknesses, it is a good golf course and a noble attempt at creating something in the style of the classics.

Tomorrow I'm scheduled to play a new course by Kay that was built over a landfill, which essentially means no trees and lots of earth-moving.  It is a municipal course in southern NJ that attempts to copy the holes of various European (mostly Scotland) courses.  It is also the course where Kay will attempt to create Alister Mackenzie's "prize winning" hole, as suggested to him by Brad Klein.

I thought this might be a timely post based on some of the discussion recently about the hypothetical question posed by Patrick Mucci as to what might be different about an exact replica of The Old Course designed by Tom Fazio for Steve Wynn in the middle of Nevada.  

I should admit that I'm not a big fan of copy or replication courses or holes.  I'm a person who believes that the best architecture becomes part and parcel of its surroundings, and that integration is wholly important to the individualized unique character of the course.  That being said, designing on a landfill seems to be very similar to what Wynn/Fazio had at Shadow Creek (i.e. nothing much in the way of natural feautres to work with), and I have to admit that I'm intrigued to play the course tomorrow for two reasons;

1) I'd rather see something that attempts to copy classical concepts than another modern style course built there.

2) The holes that have been selected are also intriguing.  While I haven't yet had the opportunity to play much in the old country (Old Course, North Berwick, and not much more), I like the fact that many of these holes are unknown by most American golfers.  

For those who have played these courses, what do you think of the following hole selections?

Hole No. 1
432 Yards, Par 4
Royal Portrush No. 1, Northern Ireland


Hole No. 2
206 Yards, Par 3
Biarritz No. 6, France

Hole No. 3
489 Yards, Par 5
Glenneagle (Kings Course) No. 18, Scotland

Hole No. 4
372 Yards, Par 4
Nairn No. 3, Scotland

Hole No. 5
236 Yards, Par 3
Carnoustie No. 16, Scotland

Hole No. 6
502 Yards, Par 5
Southport and Ainsdale No. 2, England

Hole No. 7
464 Yards, Par 4
Architect Alistar Mackenzie

The 7th hole at McCullough’s is not only our signature hole, but also our most unique. Alistar Mackenzie, the original architect of Augusta National and Cypress Point, entered and won a hole design contest sponsored by Country Life Magazine in 1914, which he credits for spearheading his career. The hole was originally to be constructed at the Lido Golf Club in New York, but was never built there. We created it here on the recommendation of Golfweek’s Brad Klein. As the biggest hole Stephen Kay has ever built, number seven’s fairway is 159 yards at its widest point! The original hole design incorporated part of the Atlantic Ocean. Since that was not possible at McCullough’s, we built a three-acre waste bunker to take the ocean’s place. The hole’s distance ranges from 380 to 480 yards, depending on how you play it. One can play to the waste area’s island fairway on the left, or try to hit it over the island fairway and over the waste bunker to a large generous fairway, or simply bail out to the right and hoping for a one-putt to par the hole.

Hole No. 8
414 Yards, Par 4
Turnberry No. 10, Scotland


Hole No. 9
172 Yards, Par 3
Royal Dornoch No. 10, Scotland

Hole No. 10
466 Yards, Par 4
Royal Dornoch No. 14, Scotland


Hole No. 11
341 Yards, Par 4
Gleneagles (Kings Course) No. 12, Scotland

Hole No. 12
443 Yards, Par 4
Royal County Down No. 3, Northern Ireland

Hole No. 13
203 Yards, Par 3
Gleneagles (Queens Course) No. 5, Scotland

Hole No. 14
517 Yards, Par 5
St. Andrews No. 14, Scotland


Hole No. 15
283 Yards, Par 4
Royal Dornoch No. 5, Scotland

Hole No. 16
136 Yards, Par 3
Royal Troon No. 8, Scotland

Hole No. 17
501 Yards, Par 5
Waterville No. 11, Ireland

Hole No. 18
358 Yards, Par 4
Prestwick No. 4, Scotland


I'll report back after playing.  Hopefully, they've found some way to create some firmness and playing characteristics for the holes they are trying to emulate.  


 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dr. Bob Banks

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2002, 09:25:49 PM »
Its going to take a lot more then copy holes of British Courses to fight the traffic and cross the bridges to come over to Jersey. One of the main things they will screw up on a course like this is that it is close to impossible to recreate that rough edged look that true british courses seem to have. Isn't steven Kaye taking all of this a little too far? Has this become his schtick? What do we look to see from him next, 18 of Roger Rulewich's best?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2002, 10:01:13 PM »
Probably not a bad idea to give US golfers a little smattering of other things and those aren't bad things to give them a smattering of. But that kind of replication course can probably never be much more than a novelty thing and should be kept to a minimum. But I glad to see "the different" in architecture and Stephen Kay has done some nice work elsewhere!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2002, 12:50:27 AM »
I am not a huge fan of replica courses but I have managed to play a bunch of them.  One by-product of these courses is that it at least gets golfers noticing and talking about gca and I think anything that promotes that kind of discussion is good for the game.

I haven't played The Architects Golf Club but I bet a very large percentage of golfers playing that course had never even heard of most of the architects like  MacDonald, Travis, Flynn, Banks and  Raynor whose work is being replicated. So exposing the average golfer to even a little history or theory of golf course architecture at least shows them that there is another way.

On the other hand, is the golfer being well served if his first exposure to a redan hole is the admittedly not very redan-like 12th at The Architect's Club? I don't know the answer to that but overall I think the positives of the experience outweigh the negatives. Besides there are a lot of courses in this country so I think there is room for a few replica courses as long as they don't become an epidemic

And for people like us on here isn't also fun to be able to show off some of your knowledge of gca to your partners even if it is only to tell them what the architects got wrong about the replicas?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

TEPaul

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2002, 06:33:08 AM »
One of the real honest to goodness true fallacies I've noticed in golf architectural analysis when it comes to the whole idea of replicas or copies of holes and the quality of the copy is if it isn't exact something must be wrong with it!

That's ridiculous to me! If the variation works better than the original the reasons why are the most interesting of all! Time and play and an honest analysis of that is the only determinant, not how exact a copy it is!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2002, 07:18:50 AM »
Tom,

I guess the question that's germane to the recent discussion about replicating The Old Course would be;

Even if these holes are EXACT, down to the molecular structure, replicas of the holes in question, and somehow the weather in south Jersey becomes as tempestuous as that off the North Sea, would there be a difference in my playing them versus the originals?

Still, I'm eager to see what Kay has wrought and I like his mostly unusual choices for the treeless, barren site he had to work with.  These are assuredly NOT the most famous holes from only championship layouts, which I think is a good thing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2002, 10:03:43 AM »
The more I think about Kay's replica course the more I like the idea--as a one time course--I think I've got to go see it. I particularly like the idea of MacKenzie's "prize winning hole". I might even like the idea of some quirky and radical old holes from the past that maybe don't exist anymore for whatever reason to be redone again!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

nuzzo

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2002, 11:21:54 AM »
What is the name of the course and it's location?
thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2002, 11:37:51 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Did Charles Blair MacDonald and Seth Raynor duplicate golf holes when they designed and built golf courses ?

TEPaul,

A YES or NO will suffice  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bye

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2002, 12:16:05 PM »
Why? Why not be original? Or at least as original as you can get.

Mike, I'm not quite sure that building golf courses on landfills equals "lots of earthmoving."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2002, 04:52:11 PM »
Pat:

Yes, MacDonald copied some holes and created variations of holes and hole concepts that he brought back with him from Europe at NGLA and both MacDonald and particularly Raynor did variations of them all over America.

Is there a point to your question in the context of Mike Cirba's original post?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2002, 05:01:29 PM »
TEPaul,

My point was, that certain holes are worthy of duplication.

That certain holes provide the ingredients for an enjoyable and challenging golfing experience, architectuallly and strategically, for all levels of players, and that their duplication should not be looked at in anything but a positive light.

If CBM and SR did it, how bad for golf can it be ?

If CBM  and SR did it, why shouldn't others ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2002, 06:45:09 PM »
Pat:

You're right that CB and Raynor duplicated holes or more specifically duplicated the concepts and parts of holes--particularly when they found the natural ground conducive to construct them on!

Pete Dye likely did somewhat the same, Maxwell did, MacKenzie did, Crump did, Wilson did, most good architects did in some degree or form. They studied good holes and  courses which contained valid and exciting architectural concepts and used those concepts when they could find land conducive to them in some way.

Did I ever say there was anything wrong with that? But to the minute detail type of exact replicas I don't know I'm much in favor of and none of those architects did that exactly! They designed holes using a type and tried to have it conform to the land they found that was conducive to that type hole.

Do you have any idea why MacDonald did not build a Biarritz at NGLA Pat? If you don't, I'll tell you why he said he didn't. Do you have any idea why Tom Fazio didn't replicate PVGC's #5 on the short course? If you don't I'll tell you why he said he didn't.

But in the meantime why don't you try to guess?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2002, 01:53:34 PM »
TEPaul,

I've seen enough of Raynor and Bank's work to know that they didn't just find the holes in nature, they artificially constructed them, as did CBM at NGLA.

I believe CBM indicated that he couldn't "fit" a Biarritz into the sequence of holes he designed due to the terrain at NGLA,
as to PV # 5, I'd prefer not to make an uninformed guess, that's something that others on this site are much better at than me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2002, 05:32:25 PM »
Mike Nuzzo,

The name of the course is McCullough's Emerald Golf Links in Egg Harbor Twp., NJ.  It's about 15 minutes from Atlantic City, and is owned and built by the township, which is quite the source of contention among the owners of semi-private upscale courses in the area because of cheaper pricing.

Bye,

While I agree that designing on a landfill doesn't necessarily dictate lots of earthmoving, trying to replicate original holes from the British Isles on a landfill pretty cleary does.  Sorry for the confusion.

All,

It's difficult to believe that a golf course that attempts to be as authentic to the originals as this one was actually built as a municipally-owned public course.  I went there looking for the places where Kay would compromise and soften his replica holes from the originals, and found a few, but for the most part, this is a daringly different (and difficult) golf course.

First, a word of warning.  Let's not forget that this course was built on a landfill, and the tell-tale signs are everpresent and detracting.  Numerous vents, both large and small, are located throughout the property, including one particularly odorous one near the 13th tee.  In one particular case, a handsome looking pot from a distance caused me to laugh out loud when I saw that instead of sand on the bottom, a metal vent lid was there!  Still, Kay did about as good a job as one could considering that he was designing in a literal minefield of man-made environental controls.

That being said, the property contains considerable elevation change for South Jersey, and in many cases, steep rises and falls add to the challenge.  

So, what's surprising?  Well, for instance, the bunkers DO fit into the category of gnarly and nasty, many of them with wild grasses flowing from their surrounds.  They do justice to the types of bunkers one finds in the old country, and are not just little round pits that are shallow and manicured.  They are most assuredly NOT user-friendly.

Also, the fairways generally heave to and fro, with lots of movement throughout.  After the first cut of rough, the course transcends into DEEP, thick grasses which are both beautifully authentic and deadly.  I can imagine that inevitably the club may opt to cut some of this stuff back, because I can imagine a lot of lost balls and long rounds, but I was glad to get to see it in this state.

The greens were also a heck of a lot of fun.  They contained numerous slopes, dips, and swells, and only a few, like the "Biarritz" second, seemed toned down a bit in the interest of providing a "fair" challenge.  

But, golf is about good golf holes, and there are plenty of them at Emerald Links.  Starting with the first, where a long second must negotiate a coffin-like grassy bunker dead smack center of the green, I had the feeling that this might be better than I'd anticipated.  

Adding to the authenticity were completely blind tee shots over steep rises on holes like the 11th and 17th, or approaches that were either full or partially blind on others like the 4th or the brutally difficult copy of Dornoch's "Foxy" on the 10th.  

The course particularly made you think from the tee, as there were often nests of bunkers, sometimes center fairway, to negotiate.  

However, not all was rosy.  Some hole copies were clearly compromised by the site, such as the 14th (Long hole at St. Andrews) where a row of thick trees blocked the out of bounds fence on the right and where there was really not a "leftside" option.  

Worse yet were the two holes where you cross the street into a wooded bowl, where Kay tried to create the 5th at Dornoch and 8th postage stamp at Troon.  Instead, it looked ghastly and amphitheatre-like, and the green on the Postage Stamp was probably twice the size of the original with none of the allure.  

Still and all, standing on the tee of copy holes like the 3rd (18 Gleneages), 5th (16 Carnoustie), 7th (Mackenzie's Lido hole), 11th (12 Gleneages), 12!! (3rd Royal County Down), and particularly 17!!! (Waterville 11) with the nearly ocean wind and bleakness of the site is worth a visit for the architectural afficianado.  Kay didn't compromise much and some of the holes are outstanding, whether they are doppelgangers or not.

I'm less sure that the average paying public will understand or appreciate the course.  Conditions off fairway are a little appropriately rough and sometimes ragged.  I found that little bit of natural ground to be consistent with what I'd hoped for, however.

Also, in an effort to hide the cart paths, and not affect playing areas on a pretty small piece of property, it might be the worst cart routing I've ever seen.  I'm not sure if carts are mandatory or not, but probably is on weekends, at least.  My partner and I were ushered to one, and although I walked the course with her driving, on many holes, you can literally not see the hole you are playing from the cart routes.  They were almost humorous, such as the one on the St. Andrews holes where the "ride" took one between a fence and woods the length of the hole.  

Oh...the Lido hole?  

I'll start a new thread on that one.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

archie struthers

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2002, 07:16:14 PM »
;) ;)

Not real big on facsimile or replica courses particularly not 18 fashioned as to mimic some of the great holes in the world. Tour 18 doesn't do a little bit for me. However, if you are  using great holes as a model for design, or as inspiration , not so bad, but straight out replicas, pretty lame!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2002, 08:06:42 PM »
I'm not sure we are capable of replecating an entire golf hole and certainly not an entire golf course. There is technology to replicate a green, but even that has its limitations and can not reproduce a perfect copy. You can not copy the vagaries found in Nature.

But with that being said I do not have a problem with architects finding inspiration with famous golf holes and attempting to replicate their outstanding features. That is what Macdonald and Raynor did -- but it should be noted, none of their model holes were exact copies and many were composites.

Macdonald and Raynor were brilliant in analyzing a site and utilizing its greatest natural attributes while at the same time working in their model holes or concepts into the natural terrain. I believe that is one of the secrets to their success and the reason their courses are not appear redundant. No one would accuse them of being minimalists, but designing with nature does not necessarily mean minimalism as Macdonald, Raynor, MacKenzie, Thompson, Langford and others illustrate.

Inspiration is better than replication.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2002, 08:28:09 PM »
Archie/Tom MacWood;

I never really mentioned this, but I HATE the idea of "replica" courses.  They run counter to almost everything I hold as gospel about golf course architecture.

I did mention that this particular one intruiged me for two reasons;

1) It attempted to recreate holes that exist in the Old Country, and I had to see how faithfully them came out.  Given the pretty difficult site, I was interested in what Kay was able to pull off.

2) Instead of the usual "championship" holes that are famous, many of the selected holes are unknown on these shores.

And, I'll admit a third reason.  I wanted to see how Mackenzie's prize winning hole came out "on the ground".  

The result?  Some holes are excellent, some are decent, but compromised by the limitations of the site, and a small handful are pretty ghastly.  

Still, I think anyone with interest and appreciation for classic architecture would be interested in seeing it.  When it works, it's really good...simply because it has the balls to create holes that are far from the standard fare in modern golf, and when it doesn't, you find yourself thinking and wondering if the site is indeed "toxic free"?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2002, 04:09:30 PM »
Mike:

Although it's early -- how would you stack up Emerald Links versus other public courses in South Jersey? In all of Jersey?

Does it have the wherewithal to be among the top 10? Top 15? On a Doak scale what # would you give? What # would you give Shoregate?

I'm looking to play Emerald probably sometime in early August.

One last question -- does the course possess some really interesting holes besides the replica of the hole from Lido?

Thanks ...

matt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2002, 04:21:06 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery !

If someone succeeded in building and 18 hole public course in NJ with, close to identical, famous holes from Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England,
what's wrong with that ?

Think of all the people, otherwise unable to ever play those holes overseas, that would be afforded the opportunity to play the great holes in golf history.

Think of all those people who love golf and golf architecture who neither have the means nor the time to travel abroad, who would benefit from such an endeavor.

To deprive them seems to smack of elitism.

If done very well, I think it's good for golfers and golf.

This notion of never copying a hole is something Charles Blair MacDonald and Seth Raynor certainly didn't agree with.

It seems to have worked out VERY WELL at a small club in NJ named PINE VALLEY.  If it's good enough for PINE VALLEY, their members and guests, why isn't it good enough for the public ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2002, 05:18:44 PM »
Mike,
Thanks for the info.

So after watching the morning round at the GAP next monday, should I head to Emerald Golf Links or to Twisted Dunes?
Thanks.

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Cirba

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2002, 06:04:52 PM »
Matt;

At it's best, it's really good, in the league of a Twisted Dune for it's ability to overcome site limitations and transport you somewhere else.  However, there are a half-dozen holes dictated by the site that flat out stink (pun only half-intended).  It makes it tough to put a real Doak Scale number on it without more thought, because I don't want to send people to a course they might find disappointing in its entirety.  The parts are definitely better than the sum of the course.  Some holes are 8's, others are 2's.  Does that help?

It might make the top 20 publics in NJ, although towards the latter half, although there are holes and design concepts there you'll find nowhere else that are exciting and refreshing.  For the architectural afficianado, it's worth a visit if you're in the area.

ShoreGate...I hesitate to rate because we've already both been termed as unfairly critical by the owners.  I'd like people to play it and make up their own minds, but don't go there thinking I recommended it.  The Doak Scale number "0" says, "A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances.  Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn't have been built in the first place."  Your all free to draw your own conclusions.

Patrick;

I'm not sure where I've been in any way overly negative about Emerald Links, and I have praised both the concept (given the limitations of the site to create anything particularly "natural") as well as the architectural effort.  

In general, I prefer courses that attempt to use natural features.  I find that makes each course unique and integrated with its own particular surroundings.  That is why I don't particularly like the concept of "replica" courses in general, but I certainly wouldn't let if affect my opinion of the golf holes that are built and as they play on the ground.  

I must admit that before I had the wherewithal to play some of the better courses, the idea of playing holes that were close recreations (i.e. Doak's 18th at Heathland is modeled after 18 at Lytham) was particularly exciting to me.

Mike;

Twisted Dune is where you want to go, no slight meant to the others.  In my opinion, it's the best public course in the state.  I believe Matt Ward agrees.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2002, 07:34:37 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I never said that you were overly negative about the course.

Perhaps someone else was negative.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2002, 08:28:02 PM »
Mike;

A word of caution...after seeing Pine Valley in the morning, almost any other course in the world I could recommend will suffer by comparison.  Still, I think you'll enjoy Twisted Dune quite a bit.  :)

Patrick;

I must have misunderstood your post.  Mea culpa.  

I think we agree that the concept of replication holes and courses can have merit, but the devil is in the proper execution. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To replicate or not to replicate
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2002, 09:08:57 AM »
Shivas,

You must be a securities lawyer... ;D ;D ;D

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre