[Neil_Crafter]

In an article by Joshua Crane in Golf Illustrated of July 1926 entitled "Log Rolling", he responds in his ongoing battle with Mackenzie and others, saying:

"Dr. Mackenzie shows his carelessness by basing his criticism of this method on the article on Sunningdale, as being on the New Course, whereas the analysis was on the Old Course. What confidence we should have in his meticulousness, and what enormous weight give to his conclusions! He might find it rather hard to explain why when he collaborated with Mr. Colt on the New Course at Sunningdale, he did not transplant some of St. Andrews wonderful (?) holes and thus show its appreciation of its excellence."

The accepted orthodoxy as I understand it has Colt as the designer of Sunningdale New, perhaps with some assistance from JSF Morrison. I have never heard anything connecting Mackenzie with S New. Would Crane have been in a position to know? Or was his imagination inventing something to help his argument?

Interested in any opinions.

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

MacKenzie certainly never said anything about being involved at Sunningdale.  I think Crane may just have adopted the convention that if Colt and MacKenzie were partners, then they were both responsible for each course in the partnership.

Then again, Dr. MacKenzie studiously avoided saying anything about being involved with the Eden Course at St. Andrews, but I believe he was involved with the Eden.  Nobody will ever convince me that some of those greens were Colt's work and Colt's alone.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
That is my understanding too - I've never seen anything about Mackenzie at Sunningdale either. Perhaps that is what Crane did in adopting the convention, perhaps he knew something specific too.

With respect to the Eden, he did generally avoid saying anything about it other than that Colt was the architect. However, I did find this entry in 'Spirit of St Andrews' p 10, where he states clearly,

"At St. Andrews there are two other excellent courses - the New and the Eden (designed by Mackenzie and H.S. Colt)".

So there it is in black and white, and he even lists himself first! I don't believe this comment of attribution has really been noted by anyone before to my knowledge. I know that you are convinced that some of the Eden greens are obviously non-Colt, so I suppose this attribution would come as no real shock to you. Some independent evidence of his involvement on the Eden would be great too, but this may be all we have to go on.

As for Sunningdale New, perhaps the same applied and he did collaborate with Colt there too.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Neil,

Could the parenthethical comment have been added by whoever edited those Mac papers for the 1995 release? 

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
I'm not sure if Mackenize got a little caried away there or not. He did write he collaborated with Colt at Sunningdale-New. Difficult to say if he really meant to say I was his partner at the time the course was built or actually did work on the project.

I have my doubs about Eden, but I do think he was more involved in the redesign of Pebble Beach than was reported back then. I've never been able to figure out why Egan & Hunter were chosen but not MacKenzie.

[Sean_A]

Neil,

Could the parenthethical comment have been added by whoever edited those Mac papers for the 1995 release? 

Jeff

I was thinking the same thing myself.  The use pf parenthesis is much more common these days and I don't know why the attribution wouldn't be included in the normal text - unless of course it was added later as a bit of "colour commentating".

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom MacWood:

I forget where I heard it, but my understanding was that when MacKenzie did some work at Pebble in 1926 or 1927, rebuilding the 8th green [which Thomas' book credits to MacKenzie in the photo caption, something Thomas was meticulous about], MacKenzie and the superintendent of Pebble Beach did not see eye to eye and therefore MacKenzie was not welcome thereafter.  That's how Egan [who was otherwise MacKenzie's partner at the time] wound up with the job.

[Thomas MacWood]

TD
That seems to be the most logical explanation. I think the chap's name was Mayo. I recall Bob H. posting some poignant letters between MacKenzie and Morse from the 30s, in the height of the Depression, and it was obvious there was bad blood between Mayo and MacKenzie. There was hint of desperation in those letters.

On the other hand it is kind of surprising to me that Morse would appease his super in a confrontation with one of great golf architects in the world. Especially since the guy was producing spectacular work in the immediate neighborhood. Maybe he figured with his two partners on board and his construction company doing the work that the results would be the same.

The reason I believe MacKenzie had more to do with PB than was reported: 1) the look of the course 2) Egan's comments about the mock-dune hazards, basically it wasn't his idea but it sure turned out well 3) Morse wrote an article on Monterey Peninsula golf in American Golfer in 1934, and he said the course was redesigned by Chandler Egan with the help of Dr. Alister MacKenzie.

Maybe he was talking about the first redesign, but I don't think so. Another interesting point - MacKenzie put a photo of the 7th hole PB on the cover of the MacKenzie & Egan pamphlet.

[TEPaul]

I have those letters between Morse and MacKenzie around here somewhere but my recollection is MacKenzie was complaining to Morse that a superindendent (Mayo) shouldn't be allowed to tell MacKenzie what to do. I don't think it actually said so but it sounded to me sort of like Robert Hunter might have gotten involved and come up with some resolution (Egan). I think I remember Monterry Peninsula being mentioned in those letters too.

[Neil_Crafter]

While I'm interested in Mackenzie, Egan , Mayo and Pebble Beach I was hoping to bring the discussion back towards Sunningdale New, or at least the Eden Course.

Tom D, I recall you saying on another thread that the Spirit manuscript contained a lot of hand written additions and alterations by Mackenzie. With what you know about the process of that book, is it likely that 'someone' inserted the comment in parentheses about Mackenzie and Colt, except Mackenzie? I can't imagine they would have adjusted the manuscript like this in any such way. I'm still betting Mackenzie added the parentheses, but only way to know is to check with Ray Haddock and ask him if he could examine the manuscript for us, which I will do.

Neil
I'm not sure if Mackenize got a little caried away there or not. He did write he collaborated with Colt at Sunningdale-New. Difficult to say if he really meant to say I was his partner at the time the course was built or actually did work on the project.

I have my doubs about Eden, but I do think he was more involved in the redesign of Pebble Beach than was reported back then. I've never been able to figure out why Egan & Hunter were chosen but not MacKenzie.

Tom MacW - I'm not sure what you are suggesting in that first sentence - you say he did write that he collaborated with Colt at Sunningdale New - if so, could you point me towards the location please?

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
Here is the article.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1926/gi251n.pdf

In trying to emphasize his point and strengthen his argument with Crane I wonder if he may have gotten a little carried away. Ironically Crane wasn't even analyzing the New.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Tom
I do have that article but it was only on re-reading it that I picked up the reference by Mackenzie to Sunningdale Old, where he says:

"In his article on the New course at Sunningdale, he (Crane) rates it much higher than the old course at St. Andrews, whereas the writer, who collaborated with Mr Colt in designing it, would never dream of putting it anywhere near the same class."

So I guess that's where Crane got the attribution from for Sunningdale New, I just hadn't backtracked sufficiently well to pick this up.

Yes, Crane makes it clear that he was analysing the Old course at Sunningdale and not the New, and berates Mackenzie for this as well!

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
Here is the article.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1926/gi251n.pdf

In trying to emphasize his point and strengthen his argument with Crane I wonder if he may have gotten a little carried away. Ironically Crane wasn't even analyzing the New.

Neil
On the other hand I have not known MacKenzie exaggerate or to claim credit for a course he did not design. Its quite possible he had some influence on the design.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
I would agree with you. I have been digging into the courses he claimed in his 1923 advert and the vast majority seem to be checking out. Some I haven't been able to find anything about yet, but as a general premise, I think you are spot on. If he says he collaborated then I reckon he did. What form that might have taken is probably lost in the mists of time......

[Paul_Turner]

That's a new one.  I thought Mackenzie was almost out of the firm by the time of Sunn New and Morrison was just getting involved.  But I can't see why Mackenzie would lie and so they must still have been in their loose partnership.  He doesn't claim any involvement in "Spirit" just that he liked the short holes and the course was a bit hilly. 

Either way, Sunningdale was basically synonymous with Colt.

Mackenzie doesn't go out of his way to credit Colt with The Eden in Spirit of St Andrews, no more than several other courses that Colt worked on: redoing Sunningdale Old, Hoylake .   

If you got honoured with the 4th course at St Andrews would you get someone else to design the greens?  Or would you keep a close control of the project?  Perhaps I'll ask David Kidd if his ideas got into the ground

 Jeff is right the "designed by Mackenzie and H S Colt " in parenthesis was added by a modern editor.  Why would Mackenzie use "Mackenzie" when the rest of the book is first person "I"?

[Paul_Turner]

Another clue is in the introduction, Haddock writes: "the Eden course at St Andrews (with H S Colt)"... so I think he added the other one too.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Paul
Hoping you might chime in on this one. That is a clue certainly, but also could be that he was simply picking up on what Mackenzie wrote. I've emailed Ray Haddock and asked him about this particular passage and will report in due course. If he did do it, I wonder on what basis? He must have known something to do it wouldn't you think?

I take your point about getting someone else to design the greens if you were doing the 4th course at the home of golf, but Colt would not have been there full time and the timing apparently coincides with a period when Mackenzie was spending a lot of time in St Andrews mapping the Old Course. So I would surmise its entirely possible that when Colt was unable to visit he had Mackenzie there willing and able to look things over and possibly turn his hand to building a green or two or three. Seems a reasonable premise to me, and I think Tom D thinks that way too.

I can't see Mackenzie lying about Sunn New either, so if he did collaborate you would think the club would have a smidgeon of evidence that he visited on occasions.

[Thomas MacWood]

Colt designed the Eden in 1912-13. MacKenzie mapped out the Old Course in 1924. I don't think they were partners in 1924. I seriously doubt MacKenzie had anything to do with the Eden.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Of course you are correct. I had my dates well out of kilter (my only excuse is that I have just moved house/office and a lot of my stuff is still packed away). I have just got out DSH and Tom D suggests Mackenzie may have spent time in St Andrews familiarising himself with TOC as there is a lot about the course in the 1913/14 lectures he gave to the Greenkeepers that formed the basis for Golf Architecture come 1920. Hope that makes a bit more sense.

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil
I'm with you. I get discombulated often and easily myself and who knows it might be true. At this point nothing would surprise me. Its quite possible the entire Philadelphia school designed the Eden, Sunningdale-New and the Old Course before all dying prematurely.

[Paul_Turner]

Neil

I think the Eden and Mackenzie connection was started by Cornish and Whitten in "The Golf Course".  

There was a reasonable amount of press at the time of The Eden being built, including Colt describing the course to be built; I haven't found a mention of Mack.  (I haven't read of a Mackenzie connection earlier than C&W.)

Regarding how wild a few of the Eden greens are and this being more "Mackenzie" than "Colt".  Well the Old Course is right next door and I reckon that was Colt's influence rather than an influence from Mackenzie who hadn't built any really wild greens by 1912  (Alwoodley's and Moortown's aren't more undulating than those at Swinley or St George's Hill).

They didn't partner until after WW1 and I think Mackenzie was definitely out of the firm by 1924 (Morrison in).  Or he was just basically working for himself and in the firm in paper only.

[Thomas MacWood]

Colt was building wild greens around this time too. I believe it was at St. Georges Hill where he met some criticism - the contours of the greens were said to be over the top. If I remember corrrectly Darwin was one of the critics, and they were altered.

[TEPaul]

I've often wondered if Mackenzie's and Colt's relationship deteriorated for various reasons towards the end of their partnership and afterwards. I've also often wondered if Colt and Alison partnered with Mackenzie basically for defensive reasons.

[Thomas MacWood]

Neil

I think the Eden and Mackenzie connection was started by Cornish and Whitten in "The Golf Course".  

There was a reasonable amount of press at the time of The Eden being built, including Colt describing the course to be built; I haven't found a mention of Mack.  (I haven't read of a Mackenzie connection earlier than C&W.)

Regarding how wild a few of the Eden greens are and this being more "Mackenzie" than "Colt".  Well the Old Course is right next door and I reckon that was Colt's influence rather than an influence from Mackenzie who hadn't built any really wild greens by 1912  (Alwoodley's and Moortown's aren't more undulating than those at Swinley or St George's Hill).

They didn't partner until after WW1 and I think Mackenzie was definitely out of the firm by 1924 (Morrison in).  Or he was just basically working for himself and in the firm in paper only.

Paul/Neil
It was anounced in September 1923 in Golf Monthly that MacKenzie and Colt had gone their separate ways.

[Paul_Turner]

Thanks Tom.  So that's about when about the same time as Sunningdale New was opened:  Nov 10th 1923.

I don't the split was acrimonious because Mackenzie is so complimentary of Colt and his work in "Spirit of St Andrews".

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()