[Joel_Stewart]

Tom Fazio reminds me of Tiger Woods in that he succeeds in just about any environment.   The one environment that he seems to best in is a mountain wooded environment.   Wade Hampton might be his best known mountain course but he also has so many others,

Edgewood Tahoe (with George Fazio)
Champion Hills
Forest Creek
The Stock Farm Club
Iron Horse
Treetops
The Farm in Rocky Face
Old North State Club

Why is he so successful in mountain terrain?  His routings seem superior but there is something else, nothing seems forced?

Your thoughts.

[Tom_Doak]

Joel:

On many mountain courses, everything inside the ropes has to be manufactured -- capping the entire course with better soil.  Fazio invented that technique, so it probably serves him well when he's in an environment that requires it.

Is Forest Creek really mountainous?  I didn't think there were anything close to "mountains" near Pinehurst.

[Tony Gorski]

Tom makes an excellent point here.

Red Sky Ranch here in the mountains of Colorado is often spoke of as one of Fazio's best.  But to Tom's point, to be honest, it's fabricated...........which is Fazio's specialty.

[Bart Bradley]

Joel:

I don't know about your proposition.  Dallas National, Shadow Creek, Victoria National are not mountain golf...

I don't like Champion Hills...

What made you say he did better at mountain golf than other types?  Only Wade Hampton would be mountain golf among his most respected courses.

Bart

[David_Madison]

Add Wade Hampton and Mountaintop to the list of excellent Fazio mountain courses, especially as they are right in his back yard. Old North State is not a mountain course by any means, as it's right outside of Charlotte to the east. Maybe a few soft hills, but that's it.

[Joel_Stewart]

I don't know about your proposition.  Dallas National, Shadow Creek, Victoria National are not mountain golf...

Where in the world did I say the above courses are mountain courses?  Take a split second and think about your post before you write.  You might also reread my first post.  He has excelled in the desert, the lowlands and other places but I don't think there are any architects that can touch his body of work in the mountains mainly because what Tom points out.

[Bart Bradley]

Hey Joel:

No reason for the personal attack.  I think you misunderstood me: I was simply asking why you felt that his mountain courses were better than his other types.  I was pointing out that he excelled in other environments as well (I was listing courses (Victoria, etc.)  that we all know are not mountain golf as examples of his best work --where he excels)  .  Like you, I think he does good work in all terrains, but was not clear why you think "Fazio excels BEST in mountain courses".  Sorry to have offended you.

Bart

[Joel_Stewart]

He excels because of the following,

1.  Excellent routings
2. Always has the budget $$$
3. Hire excellent construction companies and shapers
4. Fantastic experience (items like the capping issue)

He takes this and turns it into that.

[David_Madison]

Joel:

You are completely right - - sorry that I missed the set-up on your question. Another element of Fazio's excellence with mountain courses beyond just being technically better than most might be that he has chosen to live in the NC mountains, likes it there, feels comfortable there, and perhaps that type of terrain just fits his eye better. Doesn't mean that he can't go out into the dessert and do good work, or that a "flatlander" can't excel on a mountain lay-out, but I can't help but believe that you are going to do your most naturally artistic work on your home turf.

[Matt_Ward]

If anyone believes TF's Red Sky Ranch is one of TF's best designs then it's more than likely the person making the case has not played that many TF courses in such locales.

I do agree that TF seems to do well in such environments but Jim Engh can easily put forward a number of his designs in such areas as well.

If people want to see a genuine solid mountain course which is the handiwork of TF and company then head to Park City, UT and play Glenwild. Clearly, a gem of a layout and one that TF gets little attention / notice.

No doubt when building in such difficult locales you need the deep pockets and team expertise to carry it out.

One other item -- team Nicklaus has also done well in such situations with a number of sites scattered throughout the Rocky Mountain areas.

[cary lichtenstein]

Bette and I think Red Sky is one of Fazio's lesser works. I have heard that Mountaintop is terrific, but I haven't played it

[Doug Ralston]

Matt;

I looked up Glenwild's site, because I had a suspicion. Matt, it is a golf course in the mountains, but not really much of a mountain course.

Again, because I cannot post pix correctly, I will offer some admitted not very succinct pix from a website:

http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/18hole/yl/gallery/  Click on each of those.

Note, BTW, the very little earth was moved to make this minimalist course by Steve Forrest. Wish I could show you better. It does not always take big cash to do a nice piece, even in real mountain terrain.

Doug

[David_Madison]

Cary:

I played Mountaintop last year - - thought it excellent and in certain respects superior to Wade Hampton. Mountain views as good or better, better drainage (important in a rain forest environment) and more challenging as it's longer and has its hazards set to modern standards (fairway bunkers from tees, etc.) Wade has a softer, more natural look, but Mountaintop should be quite highly regarded as it becomes more exposed.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

You are spot on -- Glenwild is in Park City but it's not build on the side of a ski slope.

Ditto a number of others mentioned on this thread.

[John Shimp]

I'm not as big a Fazio fan as some posters. So, know that going in, but I don't think several of the courses Joel mentions are "excellent".  As someone mentioned, 2 or 3 of the 8 in the initial post aren't mountain courses (forest creek (2 courses) is in Pinehurst - btw I really like those courses); old north state; and Edgewood Tahoe is very flat and lakeside) and some good Fazio mountain courses like Diamond Creek and Brights Creek weren't mentioned.  I played Mountaintop 2 times in the last 3 days and wouldn't rank it as high as excellent.  Very pretty course with several good holes, but total cart ball and really not difficult/sporty compared to Wade Hampton or Diamond Creek.  In NC, there are at least 2 other mountain courses Grandfather and Linville that in my opinion beat out any of the Fazio courses in the state.  I also prefer Roaring Gap to the Fazio courses but it is a short fun course versus Fazio's more full scale efforts.

[Ed Oden]

I would assume that mountain sites are among the most difficult to design and construct.  Has any GCA designed more mountain courses than Fazio?  Maybe, but I can't think of any.  My point is that he has had more opportunities than most to figure out what works and, just as importantly, what doesn't work on mountain projects.  And I don't think it happened over night.  Wade Hampton opened more than 20 years ago.  While it has always been and remains an outstanding course, there are things he got wrong there and had to fix (particularly with respect to drainage).  I don't see his mountain designs in the years immediately following Wade Hampton (for example, Champion Hills) as particularly noteworthy.  Rather, it seems to me it is really his newer mountain designs that are of superior quality.  I am a member at one such club.  While I may be biased, I genuinely believe it is as good as any mountain course I have seen.

[Lester George]

It has alot to do with huge budgets.

Lester

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